played correctly? newbie stud high

[jt1]

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.25 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx K/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___completes
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds

4th Street - (8.00 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls___calls
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___raises
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets___calls

5th Street - (7.00 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets

Total pot: 7.00 BB

Looked like I was beat, and if not beat, at best, a small favorite.

[Stork]

I'm also pretty much a stud newb so take of this what you will, but I don't really like the way you played it.

3rd street looks okay, although if the ante were more normal (smaller) I might limp with two aces and a king behind me.

On 4th I don't like the raise. Your hand is decent, but nothing special. I would wait until 5th and then raise as long as their boards don't get scarier. I also don't like folding 5th given how it was played. Two 7s, an 8, and a 5 are dead so it's hard to put him on anything that has you in really bad shape here unless he has J6 in the hole. More likely he either has a spade draw or two small pair. I would call and re-evaluate on 6th.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
On 4th I don't like the raise. Your hand is decent, but nothing special. I would wait until 5th and then raise as long as their boards don't get scarier. I also don't like folding 5th given how it was played. Two 7s, an 8, and a 5 are dead so it's hard to put him on anything that has you in really bad shape here unless he has J6 in the hole. More likely he either has a spade draw or two small pair. I would call and re-evaluate on 6th.


[/ QUOTE ]

I considered waiting to raise on 5'th. As far as 6th goes, I thought that he probably had a draw but he might have paired a jack in the hole. And like i said, at best, i'm a slight favorite. And if I call and rags hit on 6th then I should probably call the river too so I think my effective odds are pretty poor. But I'm pretty clueless, so I may easily be overlooking something. I just don't know what.

[Stork]

I just think you're overestimating how often you are behind here. First off one jack is on the other guys board so that makes it alittle less likely that seat 7 made jacks. Also, if he did, he would probably go for a check-raise since it looks like the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif wouldn't help him so you would have no reason to stop betting after taking the lead.

And if he just has jacks, you aren't too big of a dog.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
Two 7s, an 8, and a 5 are dead so it's hard to put him on anything that has you in really bad shape here unless he has J6 in the hole. More likely he either has a spade draw or two small pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since his straight-cards are more or less dead, it is pretty obvious that he started with a 3-flush. I think two pair later on was pretty unlikely unless he had the Js in the hole.

On 4th street his flush-draw was already a favorite over your pair and with the overcard for him on 5th street it didn't get any better for you.

Your raise on 4th street would have been ok if it allowed you to get heads-up, but since Seat 2 would call your raise anyways, you could count on at least a 3-way pot. In my opinion, T-T is simply too weak for this.

So overall you could have saved a bet on the hand.

[Andy B]

The completion on third street is fine. I would probably just call on fourth. If I were to raise, it would mostly be with the idea of thinning the field, and two of your three opponents already have one bet in. And who knows, the guy with the Ace might fold for one bet anyway.

I think that the fold on fifth was a mistake. Yes, you are probably behind, but you have made the pot too big to just give up. There are seven big bets in the pot, and if he bets the rest of the way, it will cost you three bets to win ten. I don't know what the rake is in this game, but say that takes away 1 BB. In that case, you're getting 3:1 on your money. If he has a big pair in the hole, you're only about a 2:1 dog, and you probably don't need to pay off that last bet if you don't improve, so it won't cost you three BB every time. If he has just the four-flush, you're actually a small favorite. Now if he has a four-flush with a pair of Jacks, which I think is pretty likely, he is a 4:1 favorite, but you don't know what he has. I think that if you take a weighted average of his possible hands, you would probably find that calling down is your best course of action.

[Shandrax]

Four flush + overcard is favorite over a big pair. It's in the simulation section of 7CSFAP.

[Andy B]

Well, I didn't look in the back of the book. Seems to me that those are general cases, where you have no other information to consider. I went to twodimes and used the information we had and made some assumptions. The Jack alone is not enough to make the other guy a favorite, in part because there's one gone. If you give him the As in the hole, that doesn't help him much, because there are two gone. If we give him the Ks in the hole instead, he is still a tiny underdog, because there's one of those gone as well. Only if we give him the Qs in the hole does he become a favorite.

And it doesn't matter much anyway. In evaluating this situation, if you make hero 50:50 against all four-flushes, your analysis won't be off by much in any case.

[blumpkin22]

Let's assume he has a four flush. The big question on fifth is whether you think he has the J/images/graemlins/spade.gif in the hole. If you knew he did, you should fold as a 4:1 dog. If you knew he didn't, you should call being about even money. What needs to be determined is the percentage of the time he has the J/images/graemlins/spade.gif that makes calling down exactly a break even proposition. (Quick math tells me that this is 2/3, but I could have made a mistake). I have a feeling that the percentage is high enough that you cannot give him that much credit for it and should call down.

[Roland]

Good posts so far. I can only add that, in my experience, these guys play pretty much every hand, so folding live tens in a 7BB pot is a mistake here.