Typical? AK OOP

[BoxTree]

I see this situation over and over again, and I'm lost. Any comments appreciated.

Live game, 200 NL 3-5 Blinds, 9-players

Hero has AKo UTG.

Hero is viewed by all as a tight, conservative player.

Hero limps.

Four callers (two and both blinds).

Flop is A74, two-suit.

Checks to Hero. Hero bets $20. Hero gets called by both limpers and both blinds fold.

Turn is J, no flush.

What to do?

If Hero bets another 3/4 pot and gets called twice, he's in trouble, yes? If he gets called once, is he still in trouble? Basically, how do you play the river? If he gets raised on the turn, you've got to figure that he's behind to at least two-pair, and then it becomes a question of pot odds, stack sizes, and bluffing frequency to determine if Hero has the odds to make a better two-pair (or maybe trips) on the river. Checking seems silly here.

Reasonable preflop stack sizes:

Hero: 300
Guy to the Left: 200
Button: 400

This isn't really a question of firing a second barrel, since you're not on air. I'm just trying to figure out how to

a) Not build big pots with TPTK when I'm OOP
b) Not let people steal these pots from me on semi-bluffs, weaker made hands (i.e. AQ), and total bluffs.

Any comments on how to avoid a) and b) (other than "fold AKo OOP" (thanks, bro)) are appreciated.

[foldem]

if you raise pre-flop you will have a lot better idea of where you are at if you are called or raised on the flop. in order yo keep the pot size reasonble you can make 2/3-3/4 pot bets.

[TheWorstPlayer]

With only 40bbs you can't mess around. I would save limping preflop for when you are deeper. At only 40bbs, it is quite simple to raise to, say, 5bbs preflop and then play essentially 2 street poker. Limping preflop is for when you have a deep stack and you want to manage the size of the pot. With only 40bbs, though, I'm going broke 90% of the time that I'm beat with TPTK. In your example, just commit yourself on the turn. You dont want to get outdrawn and you're too short to get away if you're beat.

[ryanghall]

Raise preflop.

If you hit your TPTK, you are usually getting all-in.

You have to narrow these pots with this hand, especially playing in loose live games. I've been thinking about AK in these games a lot... I don't think limp-reraising is awful either. However, if you get into a situation like this you probably aren't wanting to get stacked either.

As played, checking and playing poker isn't an awful option. Otherwise, I'd bet 2/3 pot on turn and probably fold to a raise.

Ryan

Ryan

[TheWorstPlayer]

Wow, I'm amazed that you would ever fold TPTK with only 40bb stack. I find that very rare. Only time I would do it is if I raise preflop, bet the flop and get raised all-in by tight player multi-way. Then I fold. Otherwise, I get all-in with 40bb. Usually on the turn. Could be on the flop if it is multi-way and/or I raised big preflop.

[amoeba]

I agree with TWP completely.

limping AK is a play reserved for deeper stacks.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]

limping AK is a play reserved for deeper stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain further on this? I raise AK PF 100% of the time (if there isn't a raise ahead of me).

I understand many factors involving big stack poker. Is managing the pot the only primary factor in limping PF?

A-Ko, UTG, I prefer either raising pre-flop or folding preflop. When you limp, you're not advertising the strength of your hand and allowing players in late position with bad aces in for cheap. When someone raises under the gun, it deserves respect, hence only do it with good hands. But, if you limp, you get a couple of limpers behind you, that allows the late position players to limp in with A-7s, A-4s or A-Js who may make two pairs on you. Those are precisely the types of hands you want out before the flop.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with TWP completely.

limping AK is a play reserved for deeper stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. This is a major change that I intend to immediately make to my short-stacked game.

What about AQo UTG? Raise, I assume, for the same reasons.

And AJo is still a fold.

P.S.: Thanks for all the comments thus far. This hand gives me more headache than any other hand I've encountered so far, and changing my approach will likely prevent years of angina.

[BoxTree]

Btw, if I raise preflop (say...to 20) and get called in three places (so the pot is 80 or so), and whiff on the flop, I'm done with this hand, right? Making a continuation bet in this pot (say...50 to 65) seems like spewage since I'm likely to get called by at least one player, and I'm likely going to lose unless I spike an ace or king (and even then, I could be screwed).

It is a rare table indeed that will have three people CALL an early position raise and then have the same three people FOLD to a continuation bet on any flop.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping preflop is for when you have a deep stack and you want to manage the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I understand how this applies if everyone at the table is a deep stack. But what about when half the table is deep and half the table is short (very common in these games)? Now, if I raise, I may get called by a big stack (uh-oh), and if I limp, I may get called by a short stack (seems to be a lesser type of uh-oh).

Assuming I'm deep-stacked, is it better to limp and avoid big confrontations at the expense of letting a smaller stack get involved?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limping preflop is for when you have a deep stack and you want to manage the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I understand how this applies if everyone at the table is a deep stack. But what about when half the table is deep and half the table is short (very common in these games)? Now, if I raise, I may get called by a big stack (uh-oh), and if I limp, I may get called by a short stack (seems to be a lesser type of uh-oh).

Assuming I'm deep-stacked, is it better to limp and avoid big confrontations at the expense of letting a smaller stack get involved?

[/ QUOTE ]
First off, RussianBear's post in this thread is probably one of the worst posts I've read in SSNL. Please disregard it completely, as it is completely backwards. I can't tell if he is a troll or just getting started in poker, but either way his post is terrible.

Second of all, this question as well as the others in this thread really all deserve the classic answer of 'it depends'. For instance, some guys will call a raise preflop with a small pocket pair (even with incorrect odds) but will only play after the flop with an overpair or better. Against these guys you might want to fire a continuation on Qxx or Jxx since the odds are that they didn't hit a set and they dont have an overpair because they would re-raise preflop.

The texture of the board also makes a difference. You really just have to see how different people play and then react according to who is in the hand. So for your deep and short stack question, I would raise it most likely (raising is not bad even with deep stacks, you just have to play more carefully postflop and mix in more small pocket pairs/suited connectors so that the other deep stacks can't narrow your hand range significantly from your EP raise). Then if you only get called by short stacks, you have easy decisions, and if you get called by one or more deep stacks, you'll just have to manage the pot on the turn if possible. Lines like PSB on flop, check/call turn, block river, are great against deep and short stacks.

Good luck.

[KowCiller]

Raise preflop.

Other than that, the flop bet is fine. I'd lead the turn for 3/4 of the pot and fold to a raise. if called on the turn, and the flush doesn't make it, I check/call. if the flush makes it, check/fold.

Edit: after reading some other posts, I agree that I'm not folding TPTK had i raised pf with 40BB stacks. Since we limped, I'm not looking to back my stack here, especially if the flush hits.

KoW

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
And AJo is still a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't fold here in a live 40BB stack game. I also don't fold here in an online 100BB stack game.

i guess what I'm saying is I don't fold AJo UTG in SSNL /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

KoW

[BoxTree]

Good stuff. Thanks, man.