My All Time Baseball Team

Well I haven't decided a few positions.


3rd base - Brooks Robinson


2nd base - Roberto Alomar


1st base - I'm undecided at this point.


SS - Again I'm undecided although I'm leaning towards ARod (I know he doesn't have that long of a career).


Catcher - undecided.


Left Field - undecided


Center Field - Willie Mays


Right Field - Roberto Clemente


Catcher - undecided.


Starting Pitchers - I haven't completed the 5 man rotation yet but I know of three who are on my staff. Sandy Koufax, Steve Carlton and Bob Gibson


Relief Pitchers - Haven't decided complete bullpen but I know I'd have Marino Rivera, Goose Gosage, Dennis Eckersly, and Rollie Fingers.


Greatest talent I've ever seen? Micky Mantle and it's not even close IMO. Yeah he's not my all time center fielder and he probably should be. How much do Mickey's many injuries count against him because I think he was capable of so much more. What he did accomplish is mighty impressive though.


I know I didn't include yesteryear players such as Babe Ruth but I'm indulging by selecting players I've seen play and enjoyed watching.

Hank Aaron in left.

I think Bench at catcher is one you ought to consider. He played in modern times and was way better than the others. I don't know who your other candidates are.


I think you have to find a spot for Pete Rose too. Not a good person, but someone I would pay to see and would want on my team every time.

3B: Mike Schmidt. I'd take Boggs, Brett and Eddie Mathews over Brooksie.


2B: Rogers Hornsby. I'd take Eddie Collins, Napoleon Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer, Jackie Robinson, Craig Biggio and Joe Morgan over Alomar.


1B: Lou Gehrig.


SS: Honus Wagner in a landslide. A Rod has a chance to be the greatest ever, which is saying something because Wagner was, by all accounts, a remarkable talent. Most people who saw both Wagner and Cobb play preferred Wagner.


Catcher: I'm not sure either, but Berra and Bench seem the top candidates.


Left Field: Ted Williams followed by Stan Musial (although Barry Bonds might be number one)


Center Field: Probably Willie Mays, but you could make a good case for Mantle, Cobb, Speaker and Dimaggio. Not a bad group of players, huh?


Right Field: Ruth followed by Aaron (I think he played right, not left.) Clemente was a great player, but not in their class.


Barry Bonds is one of the ten greatest players of all time.


Starting pitchers: I like Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Warren Spahn, Christy Mathewson, Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens, and Greg Maddux.


Relief pitchers: You've got a good group there; I'd add Hoyt Wilhelm.


I realize your list is recent players. I'm making my choices by reading and stat analysis of the players I didn't see play.

Bench, if not number one, is certainly close. I saw Berra catch only towards the end of his career, so I can't fairly compare him defensively to Bench. But he would have had to have been awfully good to approach Bench, who was spectacular. Berra gets an edge offensively: he was more consistent and lasted longer. When Casey Stengel was asked the secret to his winning with the Yankees he said "my man", meaning Berra. Look at where Berra finished in the MVP voting in his prime and you'll see how he was regarded while he was playing (3 MVP awards, to 2 for Bench). Ted Williams said he was the smartest player he ever saw.


His reputation as a player declined when he retired, largely due to Joe Garagiola making him into a folk hero with his "Yogi-isms."


Pete Rose was a terrific player, but not good enough to make the top 25. I agree with your thought that the fact that he was not a good guy should not effect our judgment of where he ranks as a player. Certainly Dimaggio, Mantle, Cobb, Hornsby, Ruth, Rickey Henderson, and Williams, to name a few, had some personality flaws too. It would be nice if all our revered athletes were like Lou Gehrig or Cal Ripken or Tony Gwynn or Kirby Puckett, but, alas, such is life.


I do agree that I'd want Rose on my team. The guy literally ran everywhere, even when he walked. Plus he played 160 games every year, hit .300, got 200 hits every year, scored 100 runs, and never gave his managers any grief when they moved him from 2nd base to left field, from left field to 3rd base, from 3rd base to right field, and from right field to 1st base (and did a good job at every position). A terrible manager and a terrible person but maybe the most reliably good player ever.


BTW, I recently saw a tape of Lou Gehrig giving his "luckiest man on the face of the earth" speech and it brought tears to my eyes. A man laying himself bare for all the world to see. 100% man, 0% bullshit.

Here's my team:


3rd base - Mike Schmidt


2nd base - Jackie Robinson (with Charlie Gehringer ready to step in...can you tell I'm a dodger fan yet?)


1st base - Lou Gehrig (I'd say Gil Hodges, but that'd be too obvious)


SS - Honus Wagner in a landslide


Catcher - Roy Campinella (but Bench would be a better choice)


Left Field - Ted Williams, Hank Aaron or Bonds (Sandy Amros?)


Center Field - Willie Mays (close between Mays and Mantle, but the Duke is my backup because of his team)


Right Field - Ruth (with Carl Furillo ready to come into the game for his glove /images/wink.gif)


Starting Pitchers - Sandy Koufax, Warren spahn, Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson (hey, I'm a big fan of the four man rotation). Close consideration goes to Lefty Grove Dizzy Dean and Satchel Paige.


Relief Pitchers - Rollie Fingers. Period.

Yeah, I'd like Gehrig at first, but didn't think about him as the thread started with modern players. At the end of his streak he was playing with ALS or "his disease." How about that for a reason to go on the DL. "Skip, my ALS is getting a little worse, can I skip today's game." Yeah, he was a stud.

I like your picks. I think Williams is a great pick. Bonds has the edge in power and speed, but Williams hit for average better than anybody and still hit over 500 HR while missing several years in two wars. Those years would have been big power years for him. He would have hit over 600 HR. So maybe Bonds doesn't have a big power edge.


How about Ruth as a pitcher and everyday player?


Clemens and Maddux will be remembered and are great.


You need to get some power out of your 3B, so Schmidt makes some sense.

Andy,


One story about DiMaggio you might not have heard: someone was watching outfielders shag balls during spring training, and he noticed that one fielder moved with much more grace than the rest. He was told the player was DiMaggio--and DiMaggio was near SIXTY at the time!


John

Andy,


One other player who deserves consideration is Jimmy Foxx, who, according to people who saw him in person, hit the ball harder than any player who ever played the game--and also hit a few home runs during his career.


John

ever hear about the time a reporter questioned Williams's eyesight? evidently Williams stated that he could see the contact, which the reporter didn't believe. The splinter then proceeded to smear pine tar on the barrel of his bat, step into the batting cage and call out where the ball hit the bat. "Cross seams. One seam. No seam..." got every one right too.

Why do you say that Rose is a terrible person? He did some gambling and maybe some coke snortin, but hey, happens to the best of us.

For manager take Billy Martin. Gawd he was fun to watch.


Who's your pick for mascot? I'll take Charlie O, but that's purely a hometown nostalgia vote.


And there's not enough hitting balance. There are only two choices for leadoff, Ted Williams and Ricky Henderson. The greatest hitter ever vs. the greatest combination leadoff man ever.

Hearing it from people who knew him a little. Just seeing him interviewed you can tell he's a jerk. I don't even hold the tax evasion or gambling (except on baseball) against him.

IMO, the greatest at his sport never to win a championship.


Then again, I don't know baseball very well - some guy will probably post and say Ryan sucked and he actually won the world series twice or something.

Ryan was awesome. He won the World Series once with the 1969 Mets.

I'll have some fun and make an actual lineup.


Lineup

Ty Cobb (LF)

Alex Rodriguez (SS)

Willie Mays (CF)

Babe Ruth (RF)

Lou Gehrig (1B)

Mike Schmidt (3B)

Ivan Rodriguez (C)

Roger Hornsby (2B)

Pitcher


Bench

Johnny Bench (C)

Honus Wagner (SS)

Pete Rose (utility)

Hank Aaron (OF)

Ted Williams (OF)

Barry Bonds (OF)


Starting Rotation

Walter Johnson (R)

Stever Carlton (L)

Christy Mathewson (R)

Sandy Koufax (L)

Nolan Ryan (R)


Bullpen

Dennis Eckersley (R)

Rollie Fingers (R)

Sparky Lyle (L)

Hoyt Wilhelm (R)


Comments


I took Ivan Rodriguez over Johnny Bench at Catcher for his superior defensive skills (though not much superior).


Alex Rodriguez is better now than any Shortstop has ever been. Both Ivan and Alex Rodriguez need to have complete careers in order to make the Hall of Fame but I think both now are the best ever. Amazingly, ARod is actually going to get better.


Ted Williams and Hank Aaron are bench-warmers? Well, I wanted a good leadoff hitter and decided Cobb would fit the role. There are just too many great outfielders. Are we going to have a DH?


Lots of options for starting pitchers. It was tough to narrow it down to five.


I went with a four person bullpen since my starters are going the distance quite often. Eckersley is my closer with Fingers and Lyle being used as set-up men. Wilhelm is my long reliever. The Babe can be an emergency pitcher when necessary.

His wife said he put his statistics first, baseball second, he son third, his girlfriends fourth, and then her. I think he and Bowa were involved with providing uppers and downers to the younger players when they were playing with Philadelphia. He ruined a promising player's career (Nick Esasky) when he was managing the Reds, refusing to play him so he could break the hit record. Bad guy. Johnny Bench hates him; I assume he must have some pretty good reasons.

At one time, Ruth held the World Series records for both consecutive scoreless innings pitched and most home runs hit. In 1916 he led the league in shutouts and earned run average; in 1917 he won 24 games. The next year (and the next year, and the next year, and. . .) he led the league in home runs hit!

Foxx was indeed a great one. I think he's right behind Gehrig as #2. He was called "The Beast" and all the pictures I've seen of him show clearly why so.


When Williams came up with the Red Sox, Foxx was there and a reporter said to Williams, "Wait 'til you see Foxx hit." Williams reportedly replied, "Wait 'til he sees ME hit." Years later Williams said he couldn't remember saying that but "it sounds like me."

Great picks. Bill James ranks Campanella 3rd, right behind Bench (he has Berra #1). And he's got Jackie Robinson 4th, behind Joe Moran, Eddie Collins and Rogers Hornsby.


Since you're a Dodger fan: he's got Hodges 30th and Garvey 31st at first base; Davey Lopes 23rd (too high, I think)and Jr. GIlliam 27th at 2nd base; Pee Wee Reese 10th, Maury Wills 19th and Bill Russell 69th at shortstop; Ron Cey 16th at third base (I think that's a bit high, but he was a very good, underrated player); The Duke 6th and Willie Davis 27th (!) in center field; and Carl Furillo 51st in right field. He ranks Koufax 10th, Don Sutton 31st, and Don Drysdale 33rd among pithers.

Don't know about the best manager. I know Tommy Lasorda was the worst I've ever seen. Horrible human being too. (Apologies to 2d, but it's true.)


I agree Henderson's the greatest lead-off hitter ever. Williams had the highest on base percentage ever, so batting him lead-off isn't as silly as it as first might sound. But he also had the 2nd highest slugging percentage ever.

In 1978, Ron Guidry has a phenomenal year for the Yankees: 25-3, 1.74 ERA, 248 strikeouts, 9 shutouts. Unanimous Cy Young winner.


Early in 1979, when Guidry was still dynamite (he led the league in ERA again), I saw him pitch against Nolan Ryan in Anaheim. Guidry threw very, very hard and was very, very fast. Ryan threw harder and faster. Ryan won 1-0 when Lou Piniella messed up a ball in left field. I remember after the game they asked Graig Nettles if he had any advantage, being a left-handed hitter against Ryan. He said it wouldn't have mattered if he hit left-handed, right-handed, or standing on top of home plate swinging down on the ball, Ryan was unhittable that night. And he was.

My team:


1B Lou Gehrig


2B Rogers Hornsby


3B Mike Schmidt


SS Honus Wagner


OF Babe Ruth


OF Willie Mays


OF Rickey Henderson


C Mickey Cochrane


P Cy Young


Comments:


The real interesting choice here is Henderson vs. Ty Cobb. While Cobb was obviously the best average hitter of all time, Henderson appears superior in all other categories. Think about this: It took Henderson 1191 hits LESS than Cobb to score the same amount of runs. Amazing.


The next interesting competition is between Mays and Ted Williams. From what I have heard Williams was a great hitter but not much else, while Mays was the quintessential "five tool" player. Hence, he gets the nod.


The pitcher has over 200 wins more than the next closest guy.

Manager is a tough one. Earl Weaver, La Russa, Sparky, Whitey Herzog there are several recent ones. A lot from the past. Maybe Connie Mack for longevity. But my hands down extra coach on the bench, the guy you want in the clubhouse, in the card games and just around, is Zimmer. He broke into the league with Shoeless Joe it seems like. He won with the Cubs. When the Rockies made the playoffs, he was helping Baylor. I got to see the Rockies in their first year and then got to see them come along a little. Baylor had no idea how to manage and the Rockies had (have) no pitching. But they got better. Then Zim goes to the Yankees, who don't need much help, but he helps Torre. And of course the Cubs are now at the point they are taking the Rockies' rejects. But Zim is the epitome of a baseball guy.

Lucky you. My only time seeing Ryan in person was 1985 at Wrigley when he was an Astro. He was injured early and came out. Bad uniform too.

Not a bad lineup, with Hornsby batting eighth. He'd probably get a lot of intentional walks. Who would you rather face with runners in scoring position: Hornsby or Koufax? Koufax went 9 for 118 one year, 7 for 109 another. (Incredibly, he was a first baseman in high school.) Oh, yeah, I forgot, he was 52-14 with ERAs of 1.88 and 1.73 as a pitcher those two years, so I guess we can put up with his lack of hitting.


Lyle was plenty good, and I'm a Yankee fan, but I'd pick a lot of others before I'd take him (Rivera, for example, his 9th inning throw to second base last November notwithstanding). Eck and Wilhelm were pretty good starters as well: Eck won 20 for Boston before he became a reliever and Wilhelm pitched a no-hitter once. From 1987 through 1996, a ten-year span, Eck walked 98 and struck out 707, a better than 7:1 ratio. In 1989/90/91 he walked 16 batters (in 181 appearances) and struck out 215. 0.61 ERA in 1990. Not too shabby.

There are better relievers than Lyle but I couldn't come up with a better southpaw.


Besides, nobody had mentioned Lyle and I wanted to have a couple unique picks.

"The pitcher has over 200 wins more than the next closest guy."


Total Baseball lists Young with 511 wins, Walter Johnson with 417, so not quite 200. Not quite 100 either, but there's a reason they named the award for best pitcher of the year after the guy.


Your most interesting pick, I think, is Cochrane. He's largely forgotten today, and although I think Berra and Bench and possibly Piazza should rank higher, there's an excellent case to be made for him as #1. Great on base percentage, some power, great eye (1932: 23 home runs, 22 strike outs), good batting average (.320 career), smart player (became playing manager for Detroit, winning pennants his first two years).


His real name was Gordon, but Mickey Mantle's father didn't know this and named his son after his favorite player. I have a reprinted copy by SABR of Cochrane's book "Baseball: The Fan's Game," originally written in 1939. A nice read.

I can't quite figure out what Zim does, other than sit next to Torre so Torre doesn't look so ugly by comparison. Lots of people forget that the Red Sox manager when Bucky Dent broke their hearts in 1978 was. . .Don Zimmer.


In his comments abaout Jim Palmer in his new book, Bill James says:


"Jim Palmer was the ultimate pretty-boy athlete. Unnaturally handsome, with clear blue eyes and a square, smiling face, he was also highly intelligent and articulate. In his articulate way he whined about the Cy Young voting every time he didn't win it, feuded with his manager, and pulled a face whenever teammates misplayed a ball behind him. He was sort of the exact opposite of Don Zimmer, who is ugly as boiled sin, but solid, authentic, tough, and lovable."


I agree with his thoughts about both men.

I saw Ryan pitch again when he was with Houston against the Dodgers. Houston led something like 12-0 in the 3rd inning, so Ryan coasted and only pitched 5. Mr. Genius Tommy Lasorda walked Jose Cruz intentionally with men on 2nd and 3rd and one out in the 1st inning. I mean, how can you give an intentional walk in the 1st inning? The next guy hits a bases clearing double.


In the second, Cruz comes up with the bases loaded. I remember joking with my dad that they ought to walk him now.


Sure enough, grand slam.


It was misting slightly. The fans, when it got to be 12-0 in the 3rd, opened up their umbrellas, apparently trying to convince the umpires that the game ought to be called on account of rain. First (and last) time we La-La land fans have shown and sense of humor. (I'm a Yankee fan, by the way; my dad's been a Dodger fan since 1925.)

Yeah, makes sense. Too bad Quisenberry wasn't a lefty. Now there was a unique guy. (Lyle was a little unique too.) [I know you meant you wanted a unique choice, not a unique guy.]

For some reason I thought Young had 600+ wins. You are right. Still 97 wins ahead of the next closest guy is quite a feat.


As for Cochrane, I picked him for his superior batting average (highest I think lifetime for all retired catchers) and runs scored numbers. He was a decent defensive catcher (a notch below Bench and Berra). His power numbers are short of Berra's and Bench's, but I think his contact ability makes up for it. If you prorate his career numbers over an 162 game season, he averages .320 BA 114 R, 13HR 91 RBI. Bench comes out to .267BA 82R 29HR, 103 RBI. Berra comes out to .285 BA, 90R, 27HR 109 RBI. I didn't consider any current players, but if Piazza has a few more years at this pace he will be the logical choice.

James's Win Shares per 162 games rates Piazza #1 and your man Cochrane #2, so your thoughts about those two certainly stand up to scrutiny.


By the way, James rates Josh Gibson as the greatest catcher of all time, saying he would have hit 500 home runs if he had been allowed to play in the major leagues. Pretty tough to tell, I would think, but Bill Veeck and many other major league observors who saw him play said he was the greatest hitter they ever saw. No doubt the great Negro League players would have been great in the major leagues too.

Andy,


My father-in-law, who is from Bridgewater, MA-- was drafted by the Boston Braves and began his pitching career in Triple A while still sixteen years old. He didn't last long--rotator cuff back in the days when doctors couldn't do much. His father played town ball with Cochrane before he made it to the majors. Thought he was a pretty good player.


John

part of the reason you either love or hate ted williams. plus he's a fly fisherman (second best fly caster named ted williams, by the way)