What's your play in this hand? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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09-03-2005, 05:53 PM

No real reads on anyone at this point. If possible, I'd like someone to give some kind of analysis at each street because I feel as though I could've played incorrectly at any given point in this hand.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Right here I could probably put him on an overpair..I don't think MP1 3-bets with an OESD.

Turn: (9.70 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 21.70 BB

JerseyTom

09-03-2005, 06:02 PM

I don't love the preflop call, but I don't hate it either since you posted. Trouble is that you can get a flop exactly as you did and be way behind a lot of stuff (basically all pairs 99+). ATo is dominated or way behind a typical UTG raiser's range.

MP1's flop CR on a drawless board is pretty scary to me and I think UTG has an overpair. I'm folding the turn unimproved here if I haven't folded preflop.

MP1 has done nothing but fire away on this board. I'm thinking the river filled him up so raising is just spewing.

Tom

Russ McGinley

09-03-2005, 06:11 PM

Calling this preflop raise is extremely marginal for me, even at the discounted price. I've noticed that the majority of my chip spewing has been calling raises in the blinds with marginal hands, missing, and being forced to c/f or going for mis-timed bluffs.

On the flop, UTG leads, couple of callers, and you raise with TPTK. Now suddenly another player wakes up after flat calling the bet. I don't see an overpair here. I would expect to see a set or two pair and he's slowplaying. Once you reopen the betting, he can now raise the field.

Now an overcard to the board hits which should really make it easier for you to get away from it. If you think you are beat here, you should fold. If UTG has a big PP (AA-JJ) and MP1 has T9 or a set (which is what it looks like), you are drawing near dead. Also considering you don't close the action on the turn, I think I can fold this pretty quickly.

On the river, you raise MP1, UTG cold-calls 2-bets and then MP1 3-bets. You are beating virtually nothing here except perhaps a hand like QJs and of course UTG's overpair which he apparently refuses to fold. I think you can find a fold at any time here.

ThaHero

09-03-2005, 06:41 PM

Faced with a pf raiser and a 3 bettor I fold this hand on the turn when that Q hits.

09-03-2005, 06:49 PM

MP1's wierd call raise is pretty scary to me, call it and get out on the turn. You're probably behind both him and UTG on the flop.

A_K

09-03-2005, 06:55 PM

Grunch.

PF: This is a marginal call PF.

Flop: Reads on MP1 are important here. Against an unknown, I think a set or two pair is as likely here (maybe more likely?) as an overpair. Would MP2 call a PF raise with suited connectors?

Turn: Fine

River: I might be tempted to try for an overcall. But as it played out, you got quite a few bets on this street. I'd be mildly concerned that MP1 filled up here (with something like 9Ts or Q10s or QQ, esp. after the three bet) so I'd call the 3-bet rather than capping. Tight weak?

Edit: after reviewing the other posts and thinking about this a bit more, I agree that finding a fold on the turn is probably a good idea, unless you're playing a maniac.

LoaferGee12

09-03-2005, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP1's wierd call raise is pretty scary to me, call it and get out on the turn. You're probably behind both him and UTG on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think UTG is 3-betting with on overpair?

Duerig

09-03-2005, 07:45 PM

I really don't like the pf call. You are usually way behind an EP raiser. Other than that, I think you played it fine.

EDIT: Didn't count outs very well. I think folding the turn is best. I'd give you around 3 outs there.

Shillx

09-03-2005, 07:53 PM

You are in a world of trouble when MP1 call-reraises on this board. Somewhere from a 20:1 - 50:1 dog imo.

Brad

09-03-2005, 09:09 PM

Well, I think the discussion has come to a conclusion that my PF call was too loose and my play on the turn and beyond was no good. You guys are good though - MP1 turned over 99 for Nines full of Tens.

Thanks for the help.

- thing85 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

lautzutao

09-03-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling this preflop raise is extremely marginal for me, even at the discounted price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you're just learning how to play(and I'm assuming you are) you really need to heed this advice and that of SSHE...

DONT COLDCALL WITH ATo. This will continue to be a money sink for you until you vastly improve your postflop play. Same thing with KJo, KTo, even AJo are money sinks for the most part.

With that being said, I have no problem with the flop-raise and calling the 3-bet, but I let it go on the turn barring an ace hitting.

09-03-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DONT COLDCALL WITH ATo. This will continue to be a money sink for you until you vastly improve your postflop play. Same thing with KJo, KTo, even AJo are money sinks for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your advice here and definitely agree with it, but for some reason, since I had to post BB when I sat down, I figured my call of the raise was not a cold call since I was already in for one bet. Am I wrong to think that?

- thing85 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Paxosmotic

09-03-2005, 09:46 PM

JerseyTom

09-03-2005, 09:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DONT COLDCALL WITH ATo. This will continue to be a money sink for you until you vastly improve your postflop play. Same thing with KJo, KTo, even AJo are money sinks for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your advice here and definitely agree with it, but for some reason, since I had to post BB when I sat down, I figured my call of the raise was not a cold call since I was already in for one bet. Am I wrong to think that?

- thing85 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, it's not a cold call, since you posted.

But, I think everyone was trying to make the point that ATo (and, similar hands like AJo and KJo) play poorly against a typical early position raiser, even with position, even for one small bet, and even when you hit your hand (I consider ATo strictly a "top pair" hand - yeah, it can make straights but its stretch is too wide to consider that as one of the hand's main attributes).

So the flop comes A-high and you're going get pummeled by AA, AK, AQ, AJ; it comes T-high and you're getting pummeled by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT.

And when you make your hand vs a hand you beat, you're not going to get much action (e.g. good players can get away from QQ on an A-high flop, good players can get away from AQ on the turn on a T-high board). So you're either going to win small or lose big.

And then there are the cases (like this specific hand) where you're paying off monsters like middle set.

Tom

lautzutao

09-03-2005, 11:05 PM

!@#$, I guess I should pay more attention...I didn't notice you posted for this hand. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

09-03-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Right here I could probably put him on an overpair..I don't think MP1 3-bets with an OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunching

I think MP1 would find a PF reraise with AA,KK,QQ and maybe even with JJ. His post flop action tells me he's not shy. I think he has a set - 99 or 55. His call/3-bet on the flop has all the markings of a slowplay who came alive when he had everybody trapped for 3.

UTG may have the overpair.

On the turn, I think I'm third best hand and drawing dead. I really really hate folding TPTK, but I think I have to here. I should probably fold the 3 bet on the flop, but I hate to raise then fold on the same street.

TomBrooks

09-04-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero (poster) calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fine

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (9.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Right here I could probably put him on an overpair..I don't think MP1 3-bets with an OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

An overpair would have likely, although not necessarily 3bet the Flop. 55 or 99 are more likely here. Cold calling prefloop with T9 is less likely but possible. It is more likely MP1 would 3bet with a Set or Two Pair than an Overpair here so T9 is looking more possible. You are drawing dead to all three of these most likely MP1 holdings.

As far as overpairs, if MP1 has AA your drawing dead, but AA 3bets the flop 85% of the time so that is unlikely .

If he has JJ, QQ, or KK your drawing to 5 outs and are an 8:1 dog.

I'd guess KK 3bets the flop 80% of the time, QQ 75% and JJ 65%.

Your odds of improving are 8:1 and your getting 17:1 to call the flop 3-bet, but your drawing dead what I would estimate to be about 75% of the time.

That would put you on a live draw 1 time in 4 so I think you would want 4 time 8 = 32:1 odds to call. (Is this correct logic?)

This does not even consider the possibility that you could be live and improve and MP1 could improve an overpair and still beat you.

Therefore, this seems like a clear fold to the flop 3bet. However, I just spent some time thinking about this and I'm not sure if my logic is correct. Comments welcome.