10/20 6max: more coolcalling,and a turn donk. - AJs

[Surfbullet]

Villain is 40/13/1.8. Too loose in general. ATSB 30+ over 500ish hands, so I figured the pf call was okay.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

Surf

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

[dave44]

I like the idea of what you're trying to do, but I think there are better ways to do it such as 3-betting preflop or check-raising the flop.

[7ontheline]

I don't know - what's his showdown%? At 10/20, it seems like he is probably unlikely to fold a pocket pair, and he probably doesn't fold any ace bigger than yours. If all he has is a worse ace or something like KQ, you're ahead anyway. I guess this would be OK if you knew you were likely ahead, but even with his high ASB I don't know how you're doing against his hand range. Maybe my analysis is way off - I'm no expert in donkbets.

[sthief09]

preflop I don't think it matters much either way (raising or calling). postflop, right idea, wrong board I think. on this board, I'd check-call the turn and check-fold the river. it'shard to put a move on a board where everyone at the table knows you don't have a piece of it

[TStoneMBD]

it appears that you think your hand is almost worth folding preflop. AJs against an isolation raise from an aggressive player in MP? thats a very strong hand especially when multiway. as sthief said i dont think it matters much if you 3bet or just call.

after the flop i think you need to checkraise it here to eliminate UTG. im not a fan of the turn donkbet because you will get raised by alot of weaker hands looking to check it down so you cannot feel comfortable folding. because of this, you lose 3bets when behind and gain 2bets when ahead.

i think that checkraising the flop reduces the likelyhood of being raised on the turn by a weaker hand.

this logic assumes that MP will call down with weaker ace high hands after a flop checkraise, which i think is the case. if anyone thinks different lmk.

[tongni]

This hand, not good. 3bet preflop. As you played it, checkraise the flop. Make sure it's HU. As you played that street, don't lead the turn. I think you will be raised by nothing a decent amount of the time. There's no point in betting here because he is almost always betting the turn, and he is folding approximately 0% of the time. It's like you decided to do what the opposite of standard is on every street.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop I don't think it matters much either way (raising or calling). postflop, right idea, wrong board I think. on this board, I'd check-call the turn and check-fold the river. it'shard to put a move on a board where everyone at the table knows you don't have a piece of it

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm expecting to be ahead here a large %age of the time - I'm donking the turn for value. I don't expect to fold better hands.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand, not good. 3bet preflop. As you played it, checkraise the flop. Make sure it's HU. As you played that street, don't lead the turn. I think you will be raised by nothing a decent amount of the time. There's no point in betting here because he is almost always betting the turn, and he is folding approximately 0% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to get him to fold. Against his hand range I expect to be ahead quite often - only AK/AQ/PPs and the occasional A7 are ahead, most hands like KJ/QT/A9 etc missed here. Being raised by a worse hand is a risk here - but I don't want to give a free card. Whether this particular opponent would take one or not is another matter.

[ QUOTE ]
It's like you decided to do what the opposite of standard is on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to vary my play. This was another attempt at experimenting with different lines. I guess it didn't go over so well.

I checkraised the flop in a hand much like this in my other post, and many didn't like the c/r. I thought this was an interesting alternative, but in retrospect I like calling down better, because most aggressive players will be more likely to bet this turn than call it.

Anyway, I bet. Villain folded.

Surf

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to get him to fold. Against his hand range I expect to be ahead quite often - only AK/AQ/PPs and the occasional A7 are ahead, most hands like KJ/QT/A9 etc missed here. Being raised by a worse hand is a risk here - but I don't want to give a free card. Whether this particular opponent would take one or not is another matter.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, are you planning to fold to a raise? I think folding to a raise here would be bad, but if he raises you're probably not in good shape, so calling down wouldn't be to great either(but slightly better EV and better for the old image if anyone is paying attention). aggressive players will raise a lot here, but if he's not stupidly aggressive, then he'll bluff raise just enough to put you in a bad spot when he does.

And, the times he does fold won't be that good for you, b/c usually it will be when he's got at most 6 outs, and would have very likely bet if you checked to him, so the risk of a free card isn't that great. Loose aggressives love to bet when shown weakness, so you might as well let their aggressiveness work against them, rather than bet into them and let them use their positional advantage and play much more optimally.


I think I like 3bet PF, or CR flop to take charge of the hand, but against an aggressive player, I think taking the passive route all the way has some merit to it.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know - what's his showdown%? At any limit spread anywhere in the known universe, you couldn't get him off a pocket pair with a sledgehammer and dynamite, and he sure as heck doesn't fold any ace bigger than yours. If all he has is a worse ace or something like KQ, you're ahead anyway. I guess this would be OK if you knew you were likely ahead, but even with his high ASB I don't know how you're doing against his hand range. Maybe my analysis is way off - I'm no expert in donkbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. PEOPLE DON'T FOLD I HAVE LOST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IMAGINING THAT PEOPLE FOLD AND THEY DON'T THEY DON'T EVER EVER EVER FOLD.

[wackjob]

[ QUOTE ]
FYP. PEOPLE DON'T FOLD I HAVE LOST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IMAGINING THAT PEOPLE FOLD AND THEY DON'T THEY DON'T EVER EVER EVER FOLD.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is that what that OTHER button is for?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know - what's his showdown%? At any limit spread anywhere in the known universe, you couldn't get him off a pocket pair with a sledgehammer and dynamite, and he sure as heck doesn't fold any ace bigger than yours. If all he has is a worse ace or something like KQ, you're ahead anyway. I guess this would be OK if you knew you were likely ahead, but even with his high ASB I don't know how you're doing against his hand range. Maybe my analysis is way off - I'm no expert in donkbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. PEOPLE DON'T FOLD I HAVE LOST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IMAGINING THAT PEOPLE FOLD AND THEY DON'T THEY DON'T EVER EVER EVER FOLD.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome post.

[Surfbullet]

great post.

Surf