Interesting hand against a suspected 2+2'er

[deception5]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[kapw7]

I can fold this turn. It is unlikely we are ahead and drawing for a weak flush will cost 2 BB to win 7

[DeathDonkey]

Fold on the flop. This is spewage.

-DeathDonkey

[deception5]

Isn't there a good chance he'd play a flush draw this way on the flop?

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there a good chance he'd play a flush draw this way on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not if he understands anything about pot equity. He's out of position, and his raise is likely to make it heads up.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Not if he understands anything about pot equity. He's out of position, and his raise is likely to make it heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he's likely to pick up the pot right now if all I have is ace high now without having to draw to it. And he has a strong draw if I do call.

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not if he understands anything about pot equity. He's out of position, and his raise is likely to make it heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he's likely to pick up the pot right now if all I have is ace high now without having to draw to it. And he has a strong draw if I do call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, so if you put him on a flush draw, why did you raise the turn?

[milesdyson]

first off, he's not very good if he's cool-calling a blind steal from the sb.

what makes you suspect he's a 2+2er? is he tricky, or is it just that his stats are like 25/15/2? also, i'm curious, why are you playing 4-handed with a 2+2er?

[Saint_D]

Does he suspect you are also 2p2?

That makes a huge difference. As 2p2 players go, how do you rank him?

Both of these questions make a big difference I think.

If he doesn't know/respect you then his play suggests a lot of hands you are behind and not a lot you beat. AQ, 98s, Kxs, 88 or 99, Maybe 22. I would be surprised if he had a flush draw better than BD. He might call with any 2 suited cards. He almost certianly should have re-raised you if this is a blind defense.

His raise is just screaming "protect my hand." and not value bet. The FD would not want to raise here without a strong chance of 2-3 callers.

Either he didn't play this one well, or had you beat, IMHO.

-D

[Shillx]

There is no way he is a 2p2er. Flat calling from the SB in spots like this is terrible, and if you ever do it, you should bet the flop like 99% of the time (i.e. you called with AA and want to trap the BB for bets). Calling preflop and check/raising the flop here is just terrible.

Brad

[deception5]

I suspected he was a 2+2'er until this hand, his name started with MilesD /images/graemlins/smile.gif His stats were reasonable - although his vp$ip was high it wasn't over enough hands that I could assume he was not.

It had just become 4-handed although one of the other players was a big donator so I didn't mind.

[Fadook]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way he is a 2p2er. Flat calling from the SB in spots like this is terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the standard play to 3-bet with a decent hand and fold with a lousy one then?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no way he is a 2p2er. Flat calling from the SB in spots like this is terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the standard play to 3-bet with a decent hand and fold with a lousy one then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any hand that you play (except in rare cases) should be 3-bet. The reason why is because you don't want the BB to see a flop for one more small bet. The exceptions are...

1) The BB never folds.

2) The BB rarely folds and the stealer is a weak player. In this case you should just call with borderline hands (QJs/55/etc).

3) You have a very strong hand and you want to trap the BB postflop. It doesn't work very well when you know the stealer and he knows you (assuming that you are both good players), but it can be very effective against unknowns.

I don't understand why you raised on the turn. Can anyone(hopefully the OP) explain to me why raising there would be a good play, or was it a questionable raise?

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you raised on the turn. Can anyone(hopefully the OP) explain to me why raising there would be a good play, or was it a questionable raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's my main question, I'm really hoping it was a misclick.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you raised on the turn. Can anyone(hopefully the OP) explain to me why raising there would be a good play, or was it a questionable raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

The cc from the small blind was a strange move and on the flop I figured he would check/raise me here with a low/mid pocket pair, an 8, a flush draw, or because he thought I would fold ace high here (which I would). Maybe he had a king, but I figured with something like a king or better most players would just go ahead and bet as it's probably enough protection and they don't need to knock the third guy out of this small pot.

So I figure there's a reasonable chance I'm ahead on the flop. I decide to call and reevalute on the turn.

When the flush card came down, he bet and I took one last stab at the pot. I thought raising made it look like I had hit the flush and that there was a good chance of folding a better hand, particularly 8x and maybe something like 99/TT. I was folding to any further bets and taking the free showdown here if offered.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way he is a 2p2er. Flat calling from the SB in spots like this is terrible, and if you ever do it, you should bet the flop like 99% of the time (i.e. you called with AA and want to trap the BB for bets). Calling preflop and check/raising the flop here is just terrible.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

It wouldn't surprise me if this was a forum member. Last time I played at one of the 2+2 table there was a ton of calling steal raises from the small blind. So much, in fact, that I actually commented about it in the chat box.

Nobody ever listens to me.

[deception5]

For what it's worth he had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and was shocked by my flop call.