Wilt Chamberlain vs. Michael Jordan

I've always felt that Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest basketball player ever, with Michael Jordan second (and Magic Johnson 3rd and Oscar Robertson 4th and Kareem 5th). I never bought the fact that all the championships Jordan won made him greater; after all, Yogi Berra, a great player, played on more championship teams than any other baseball player, and was a significant part of those championships, winning the league MVP 3 times, but no one considers him the greatest player of all time (though many consider him the greatest catcher).


But what Jordan's doing this year is making me think again. Who else could come back after all this time and turn a team almost single-handedly from horrible to respectable? (In fact, better than respetable, 13-3 their last 16 games.) Chamberlain always talked about coming back out of retirement to play again, even when he was 50, but I don't think he could have done it. [He did, though, a lot of spectacular things at that age, if you believe his book.]


No question Wilt made teams much, much better; just look at the winning percentages of the teams he played on. And with better coaching (say, equivalent to Phil Jacakson) Wilt might have won as many championships as Michael (he won 2).


But I'm certainly reconsidering my rankings.

wilton normon chamberlain...i'd take him in an all time draft #1 over any player ever...

Those of us from Chicago have know this fact for some time. Forget basketball. He may be the single most dominating athlete of all time. Period. (Tiger Woods will tell).

I remember watching a game on TV when Wilt was with the 6ers, playing against the Warriors. Wilt got the ball virtually all alone under the basket and, in order to stop him, Nate Thurmond, who was neither small, weak, nor unskilled, grabbed him around the shoulders.


Chamberlain went up anyway, with Thurmond wrapped around him, the two of them rising in unison as Chamberlain dunked, literally carrying Thurmond. Most awesome thing I've ever seen.

I'd have a hard time picking between:


Michael Jordan

Chamberlain

Kareem

Majic

Bird

Bill Russell

Oscar Robertson

Dr. "J"


I do think MJ is the best ever though.


Some comments about each:


MJ


I always thought the Bulls were vulnerable but after seeing what MJ meant to them I now understand why they did so well. I just never thought the other players were that good but I never realized how good MJ really was and is.


Wilt


An awesome talent who had some incredible accomplishments. I didn't realize it at the time but Bill Russell and Wilt were great friends when they played and after they played. Bill Russell said that the biggest flaw in Wilt's game was that he was too nice of a guy. Russell gave the example of the Knicks vs. Lakers game 7 in 1970 I believe where Willis Reed was hobbling on one leg. Russell said that Reed would have never made it through the first minute if he had been playing against Reed. Russell wasn't knocking Wilt just pointing out that Wilt was a nice man.


Bill Russell


I think his record speaks for itself. Basically made blocking shots a must have skill for big men. I don't think there ever was a better defensive player and he wasn't that bad on O either.


Kareem


I was a big UCLA fan during John Wooden's reign as coach at UCLA (I guess I'm a front runner). When Kareem went to UCLA and later to the pros he had many detractors who said that since he was so tall it was so easy for him. Well if you ever read anything or hear anything that John Wooden stated about him you'd realize that Wooden doesn't agree at all. If the sky hook is such an easy shot then why doesn't every big man in the NBA use it? I think Kareem is the best center ever but one could certainly make a case for Russell or Chamberlain.


Majic


What can you say? He didn't have a great jump shot but he did so many things so well. He was a true champion who was a joy to watch.


Larry Bird


Again what can you say that hasn't been said about Bird. A better pure shooter than Majic and could do everything well. A great leader and another champion that was a joy to watch.


Oscar Robertson


In his prime he was basically unstoppable. He sort of invented the triple double. Again he wasn't a great pure shooter but always could get a high percentage shot whenever he wanted to in his prime.


Julius Erving


His greatest days were probably in the ABA but he certainly was great in the NBA. Kind of a precursor to MJ with his acrobatic slams and incredible moves. I used to love watching the Sixers in the early 80's with his quest to win a championship which he finally did in 1983 I believe. I used to say "Does he the glass or what?" I've never seen anybody spin the ball off the glass to make the shots that he did. It's not as easy as it might appear. He wasn't a great pure shooter either but he could do so many things well.

Well I have always been a loyal Lakers fan, and throughout my life I always regarded Magic as the greatest ever (obviously biased thinking), but the reality is that Michael Jordan is so amazing that he simply outclasses everybody. The reason that I don't put Wilt on the same pedestal as Michael is because his competition was much weaker in his day. As for most dominant player- I'd say that goes to Wilt, but once again only because of his competition.

Anyway my ranking would be #1-MJ, #2-Magic, #3Wilt, #4Kareem.

As for the NBA future, I was almost 100% sure that Kobe would emerge as the greatest in the league, maybe even be as good as Michael, but now I'm only about 95% sure :-) Kobe is unbelievable but the one guy that has my eye more then anybody else in the league is the new superstar Tracy McGrady. That guy is fu-king awesome! Sorry, but there is simply no other way to put it. He might be as good as Kobe someday- he sure isn't far behind right now. Of course I don't know how good he is defensively, but if its anywhere near as good as his offense he will become a legend.


Kris

conan was way better and is the tiebreaker imho.


wilt is the best.

I do not like either one (Russell has the rings!) but Wilt can not be considered the best ever. Your example illustrates my theory for both Wilt and Shaq perfectly: they are physically superior to their respective competition but they are not the best basketball players of their time, let alone the best ever. Jordan combines physical superiority (or did at one point) with a highly skilled and developed game that (eventually) made his teammates better players. Can Wilt lay claim to dragging a player into the Top 50 Players of All Time despite himself (Scottie Pippen).

"Can Wilt lay claim to dragging a player into the Top 50 Players of All Time despite himself"


Hal Greer

Dr. J. said Magic was the only player who could score 4 points in a game and be in complete control of the game.


I like your 8 as the 8 greatest ever.

Kobe and T-Mac are both super talented and may someday reach the talent level of Jordan. I doubt it but its possible.


The thing about Jordan though was that he always made his team mates better and I'm not sure you can say that about Kobe or McGrady. Think of Paxson, Kerr, Pippin and now Richard Hamilton just to name a few. Heck you could even put Rodman on the list.

It may be debatable whether Greer is deserving over some that were left off, but IMO, he is clearly more deserving than Pippen.


Greer averaged 21.2 PPG over four seasons before playing with Wilt (61-61 to 63-64), 22 PPG during the four seasons he played with Wilt (64-65 to 67-68), and 21.2 PPG in three post-Wilt seasons, which account for 11 of his 15 seasons.


Pippen has no pre-Jordan years and three without. One of those was the year MJ tried baseball and Pippen would not get off the bench when Jackson wanted Kukoc to take the final shot of a playoff game (I will never respect him because of this). The two other non-Bull seasons have been dramatically worse.


Good comeback, though. I walked right into it.

"(Jordan) may be the single most dominating athlete of all time"


I'm a basketball fan. I am a huge Michael Jordan fan (though I think Wilt was better - he set every record in the book and managed to break through the unbeatable Celtic wall twice).


But when you say most dominating athlete, you can only talk about one person: Wayne Gretzky. There can't be any question on this subject. None at all.

Talk Gretzky all you want, but you can't dominate a sport any more than Babe Ruth did.


In 1920 he hit 54 home runs. Only one TEAM hit more combined than him, he outhomered every other team in the league by himself. The next closest player had 19 home runs. No player has ever had that much of an edge over a sport.


And we're not even considering what he did as a pitcher (94-46 with a 2.27 career ERA).


Rube

I'm not a big Pippen fan and I don't believe he's one of the top 50 players of all time, but I wouldn't dismiss his non-Jordan seasons so quickly.


In the two non-Jordan years of 1993-1995 (he clearly wasn't making Pippen that much better when he came back for the last 17 games of the regular season in 1995) Pippen was pretty dominating


He averaged 22 and 21.4 points, 8.7 and 8.1 rebounds, 5.6 and 5.2 assists, 2.9 steals. He was on the all-NBA first team, the all-Defensive First team, and was an all-star both years.


Rube

I might have to concede to you on this. I think Ruth is the only one I'd consider to be in Gretzky's league of dominance.


In comparison to Ruth's totals, do note that Gretzky, in his best years, was scoring an amount that was about 50% of the greatest NHL offence of all time, and that his 200+ points were in an era when the best teams were scoring in the low 300's number of goals.


In hockey, you are one man of five, playing perhaps a third of the game. In baseball, you are one of nine, playing offence one-ninth. Not sure how to mathematically define which performance was greater, but I certainly think they are comparable.


On second thought...Ruth used a corked bat. Gretzky's the greatest!

I'll knock Gretzky since it's a taboo to do so. Well, not really knock him since he was a truly great athlete and player. But Jordan, Ruth, and I think in time Tiger, dominate their sport as much or more than Gretzky. And Gretzky was not an all-around player. He couldn't handle the physical part of hockey, which is a part of the sport even if you exclude fighting. But his enforcers would fight you if you cleanly hit Gretzky. (Although Gretzky was hard to hit cleanly.) So as far as hockey players go he is a sissy. Nobody had to do Gordie Howe's dirty work for him. I saw Gordie at the end playing for Hartford and he manhandled players who could demolish Gretzky. (I saw him pick up and throw a defenseman who was trying to keep him out of the slot. He picked on the wrong geezer.) Gordie in his prime would also have demolished the Gretzky goons like Semanko. And Gordie didn't cry about officiating and rules changes. And nobody asks what Gretzky would do today with the trapping defenses and influx of great European players. He would still be great, in any era, but I don't think he would be quite the dominant player he was in his prime. He would be on anybody's all-time team, but I'd put a lot of the 6-team era guys with him to tell him to man up. :-)

Yeah yeah, tell Neal Broten that! Gretzky wasn't exactly built for physical corner play. In fact, his pathetic wimpiness makes his overall results and statistics even more impressive.


As for the 6-team guys, well, they could tell Gretzky whatever they wanted to. He'd shut them up quickly by scoring his usual 2.5 pts per game and turning them all into amazingly prolific scorers. In terms of today's game, well Gretzky changed the game in the era he was in (that's how he set all those records, remember?). I don't remember him disappearing against the Soviets in the Canada Cups.


As for whining about the officiating, press coverage was a lot different in those days. If Howe was whining (or, say, defecting to the WHA), its unlikely it would have ever seen the papers. Gretzky's comments were echoed by a lot of smart hockey people in any event.


And don't even begin to suggest anyone could have handled Semenko. Geez, I still see him on TV once in a while here in town and he looks like Tony Soprano except twice as scary.

While I too am a huge Gretz fan, the fact of the matter is that it is tough to conclusively say that he was even the greatest hockey player ever let alone the greatest athlete ever. Number 4 and Number 66 may have been "greater" players than 99 in the all-time best sense (although my personal pick would also be 99).


IMO, no one has dominated a sport more than Tiger Woods has dominated golf although he of course has not yet met the longevity criterion.


BTW, maybe you could list your all time best hockey team in a new thread much like Tom has done in a separate thread with baseball. That might spark some discussion amongst us Canuck 2+2'ers. Perhaps, we ought to go with 6 forwards, 4 d-men and two goalies.


Incidentally, has there ever been a superstar left winger?

yes thats true about Jordan but even more so about Magic Johnson.


Kris

Jordan's amazing consistency is what I think separates him from everyone else. The guy just never seemed to have a bad day in a big spot. There were games where Kareem looked better than Magic. Days where Magic dominated Bird. Russell dominated Wilt most of the time. Can you remember a big playoff game you watched where you didn't instantly recognize that Michael Jordan was the best player on the court? Even when Jordan was younger and Bird and Magic were in their prime, he still frequently torched both of them. The 63 point playoff performance against Bird and the Celtics was absolutely amazing. Even when he was losing playoff series to the Pistons in the late 1980's/early 90's, he still was always the best player on the court.

The introduction of the 50 greatest players in NBA history was one of the most thrilling moments I've ever seen in sports. 48 of the 50 were there: Maravich is dead; and Jerry West was sick or something, if memory serves. But to see Magic, and Bird, and Dr. J. and Michael and Wilt and Russell and Kareem and Oscar and all those othe guys in one place was quite a thrill.


Your stats show that my thoughts about Wilt improving Greer's game were not too well taken. Greer was indeed a fine player before Wilt arrived. How about Chet Walker?

"has there ever been a superstar left winger"


Jane Fonda.

"[Michael Jordan] may be the single most dominating athlete of all time. Period."


If you accept that Chess is a sport, then I submit that Robert James Fischer completely dominated that sport for about 10 years. What other sportsman can make such a claim ?

A couple billiards players if you count that. Hoppe and Ceulemans dominated for a long time. Hoppe probably longer, Ceulemans probably more. Cue sports are somewhat easier to dominate though because if you are great your opponents don't get as many chances. Hoppe transitioned from balkline and straight billiards to 3-cushion. But there were always some other players close to him. Ceulemans was pretty much unbeatable for a long while.

If you want to include games, no one can touch Marion Tinsley in checkers. Less than 5 losses in over 50 years as World Champion?