One more vs 2+2er, live 3/6

[DeathDonkey]

Live good 3/6, 2+2er tehmatt is now on my left when this hand comes up. 2 limpers and I limp Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the CO, tehmatt raises the button (damn), BB calls, limpers call, I call. 5 to the flop for ~11 sb.

Reads: none really but everyone sucks except tehmatt who is tight and straightforward.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif checked to me and I bet, tehmatt says "are you bluffing?" and calls, awful EP calls, awful MP calls. 4 to the turn.

Turn is Q /images/graemlins/club.gif checked to me, I check, tehmatt pauses and bets, EP folds, MP calls, I checkraise, tehmatt looks at me funny and calls, MP folds.

River is 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I bet, tehmatt raises, I say "nice hand" and pay off.

Who likes my flop bet? What about the turn checkraise? What range of hands do you put tehmatt on on the flop and turn? What about on the river? Should I 3 bet? Should I fold?

-DeathDonkey

[aces_dad]

The flop bet is fine if you're willing to fold to a raise or call/fold turn UI to tehmatt's raise. Given your reads he's the one your most worried about here.

The turn c/r is good, the only hands he's beating you here with are AA or AQ and if he's got those he's slowplaying for the overcalls. His PFR, flop call and turn bet range is much larger than only these two hands.

The river raise is now scary as he probably wouldn't raise a hand which doesn't beat at least one Q. You said he's straightforward but with a turned full house most straightforward people would have gone to war on the turn so he may actually be tricky.

[LoaferGee12]

I am soo confused as to why he's calling the turn and raising the river /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Am I missing something??

I honestly can't think of 1 realistic hand I'd make this play with here.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
I am soo confused as to why he's calling the turn and raising the river /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Am I missing something??

I honestly can't think of 1 realistic hand I'd make this play with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA or AQ?

[Vote4Pedro]

he knows that we know that he knows

[Hojglad]

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he turn c/r is good, the only hands he's beating you here with are AA or AQ

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Last time I checked, KQ and QJs are ahead here, also. Think about what hands you would play the way I did against a freaking-monkey LAG like DeathDonkey.

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif checked to me and I bet, tehmatt says "are you bluffing?"

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He so has AA or AQ!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
But seriously for 1 bet, call the river.

[Fantam]

I like your flop bet and turn check raise.

I put Tehmatt's range of hands on the flop and turn at AA,KK,AK-AT,KQ and QJs.

On the river, I think Tehmatt has either AA,AQ or KQ. I would call Tehmatt's river raise.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am soo confused as to why he's calling the turn and raising the river /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Am I missing something??

I honestly can't think of 1 realistic hand I'd make this play with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA or AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of these have no reason not to 3-bet the turn?

[LoaferGee12]

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he knows that we know that he knows

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Damn metagames.

[Shillx]

This hand is interesting since his flop call could mean a lot of things. The board is so dry that I might even call with a hand like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for deception. He would also call there with a queen (KQ in paticular). King-Queen is the ultimate way ahead/way behind hand on this board though I wouldn't be shocked to see him have AA here either. There is no need to 3-bet and fold out the MP player who isn't on a semi-strong draw (4 outs at most) and is probably drawing even thinner then that. If the board had something more to it I feel like he would be 3-betting all of his hands on 4th street. It is hard to say what he has, but it is safe to say that you are beat here.

Brad

What about folding this preflop? Raising to buy the button, yes - but I don't think I limp here.

[aces_dad]

Yeah I realized after I posted KQ could easily be played this way, and QJs is another candidate, though with less possible combinations.

So if you were holding KQ, were you waiting for the river to raise instead of the turn 3-bet to induce another bet on the river?

[GTSamIAm]

I thought you said tehmatt was straightforward. What hands are you paying off against a straightforward player?

[Hojglad]

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So if you were holding KQ, were you waiting for the river to raise instead of the turn 3-bet to induce another bet on the river?

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I didn't have KQ. Note that terrible MP calling my first bet (before DD check raised the turn) was the reason I called his turn raised. I wanted an overcall from her.

[Entity]

I don't like your flop bet. I like your turn checkraise. Paying off the river is a crappy feeling but given the fact that tehmatt [censored] up somewhere in the hand (seems like the flop to me, but it could also be the turn), I unfortunately tend to pay off my opponents when they play a hand in such a way that doesn't make sense.

I am saying this to acknowledge that if Mat had AA/AQ here, he played his hand badly. QJs is close -- I think he should probably 3-bet the turn in general though.

Rob

[Shillx]

I'm an idiot. Tehmatt should have 3-bet the turn. I thought that he could trap here on the river but he would have had to face her with 2 cold. Easy 3-bet with KQ or AA or AQ or whatever he has.

Brad

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm an idiot. Tehmatt should have 3-bet the turn. I thought that he could trap here on the river but he would have had to face her with 2 cold. Easy 3-bet with KQ or AA or AQ or whatever he has.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]
By the river, it was heads up. The reason I didn't three bet the turn was because MP was still in the pot, and had already called one bet on that street. I also called the flop because about 5 people were in the pot (DD's recollection of the hand was somewhat tainted). I'm pretty sure I got the most value out of my hand that I could. I'm not quite sure why entity says I played it bad. Could you elaborate, Rob? Chris seemed to agree that I got the maximum I could, so I would be really interested in why you think I played it poorly.

And btw Brad, I don't agree that I have to three-bet the turn. If I three bet the turn, I get the same value as raising the river. That is, I have to believe that if I three bet the turn, that stupid MP lady would fold, and Chris would call and then check call the river. By calling Chris's turn check raise, I at least give myself a chance to get an overcall from the lady who had already put a bet in the pot on that street. I put Chris on trips here, and he fails to bet the river like, never with trips.

[bozlax]

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On the river, I think Tehmatt has either AA,AQ or KQ. I would call Tehmatt's river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're narrowing his range to a bunch of hands that beat you and calling? There's a word for that around here...do you know what it is?

Don't get me wrong, I call as well, because he could have decided to try out being tricky with something like AK.

[TomBrooks]

Who likes my flop bet?
I don't like it since tehmatt raised preflop.

What about the turn checkraise?
I like that it worked, but I don't know that I would have trusted him to bet. If you knew he would bet, I like it.

What range of hands do you put tehmatt on on the river?
Specifically A Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Should I 3 bet? No

Should I fold? No. I don't know tehmatt and could be wrong about him having AQ.

[DeathDonkey]

I strongly disagree that he should have 3 bet the turn. I do agree with Entity that he should have raised the flop. If he 3 bets on the turn, MP lady folds, I call and check/call the river. He gets 2 BB. If he calls and raises the river, he gets 2 BB from me for sure, and maybe one from MP lady at least.

I am sort of offended that you guys think he should 3 bet the turn. I'm not that bad. I can fold a good hand when he does that and he knew it and played me appropriately. Given the way I played the flop and turn it is just impossible I have a monster here. You can't squeeze water from a stone.

-DeathDonkey

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree that he should have 3 bet the turn. I do agree with Entity that he should have raised the flop. If he 3 bets on the turn, MP lady folds, I call and check/call the river. He gets 2 BB. If he calls and raises the river, he gets 2 BB from me for sure, and maybe one from MP lady at least.

I am sort of offended that you guys think he should 3 bet the turn. I'm not that bad. I can fold a good hand when he does that and he knew it and played me appropriately. Given the way I played the flop and turn it is just impossible I have a monster here. You can't squeeze water from a stone.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can fold Q9 when he 3-bets the turn he needs to be 3-betting the turn more often. You know that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The only hand I can acknowledge that he played ok is QJs. It really depends on a read on how bad old lady is here, as if he has QJs and she can't fold an Ace, he really needs to 3-bet. Also, I didn't do the math exactly, but if she has JTs here he really doesn't mind if she folds when he 3-bets. There just aren't a lot of hands old lady can hold and will fold for two that she will call for one so overcalling isn't a super big consideration.

Rob

[Hojglad]

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but if she has JTs here he really doesn't mind if she folds when he 3-bets

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My hand was made by the turn. I wouldn't mind JTs calling at all.

[Entity]

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but if she has JTs here he really doesn't mind if she folds when he 3-bets

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My hand was made by the turn. I wouldn't mind JTs calling at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those comments were only specifically in line with QJs, the only hand that I liked your flop play with that we could debate the proper turn play on. Otherwise -- as I stated originally -- your flop play sucks.

Look at the size of the pot, how many players there are left to act after you, and the board. If you had AA or AQ I think you blew the flop, if you had KQ or QJs you blew the turn.

Rob