Turn and River Play With Middle Set

[Dopey]

BB is 28/12/4 LAG, other reads aren't reliable.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (28.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 31.50 BB

Turn: Im sure my line is correct until the turn cap. A turn cap is correct right? Given the other players in the pot I assume AA is unlikely given the flop calls by BB.

River: What do you do on the river? I don't know why I called but is a raise in order, I was just so confused. The river completes the turn draws but given the action its hard to believe any of the draws it completes would of still been in the hand on the turn.

Thoughts?

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[W. Deranged]

Damn there's a lot going on in this hand.

1. Consider raising pre-flop. Whatever.

2. Flop line is good. The problem with that line is that it basically completely gives your hand away. But in a multiway pot with a bunch of people who want to put money in might as well take the opportunity and let them.

3. Turn cap is good. The donkeys are going to call here with much less equity than you have, and you only have to be good here better than 25% of the time to make capping good. They look like they'll call two again since they've done it already. Though you are going to get shown AA a ton of the time here, maybe nearly/over 50%. (You lost to AA in this hand, right?)

4. Gotta overcall the river for sanity purposes and because the pot is f'in enormous. Please don't raise, as overcalls here would be totally sweet and you're going to get three-bet by some dumbass 5 or the expected AA and that sucks.

[cassady]

If BB were a thinking player my guess here is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif. AA is also a possibility which you ruled out too quickly, even LAGS like a stop and go with a nut hand. But given the fact he's a LAG this could be as little as AKo or AQo.

Given the read, the turn cap is reasonable. I'd favour the river call as well; however, a raise on the river isn't a terrible idea either.

[Dopey]

Thanks for your comments.

[ QUOTE ]

1. Consider raising pre-flop. Whatever.


[/ QUOTE ]

99+ is my general PFR limit (exceptions of potential blind steals and certain game situations). Maybe Im losing some EV but its minimal at best and my postflop play with mid-pp is marginal at best

[ QUOTE ]

2. Flop line is good. The problem with that line is that it basically completely gives your hand away. But in a multiway pot with a bunch of people who want to put money in might as well take the opportunity and let them.


[/ QUOTE ]

True it should give my hand away but based on the callers after CO raises it seems better to get the extra bets now hoping CO caps. The pot is too big to really protect my hand going forward so now I want to build it and I thought this was the best way to do it as CO was aggressive enough I expected a cap.

[ QUOTE ]

3. Turn cap is good. The donkeys are going to call here with much less equity than you have, and you only have to be good here better than 25% of the time to make capping good. They look like they'll call two again since they've done it already. Though you are going to get shown AA a ton of the time here, maybe nearly/over 50%. (You lost to AA in this hand, right?)


[/ QUOTE ]
I really wasn't afraid of AA here. With no pre-flop or flop cap I was relatively sure I wouldn't see AA more than 10-15% of the time. No, none of the players had AA as I expected thats why I questioned my river line.

[ QUOTE ]

4. Gotta overcall the river for sanity purposes and because the pot is f'in enormous. Please don't raise, as overcalls here would be totally sweet and you're going to get three-bet by some dumbass 5 or the expected AA and that sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't overcalling as BB bet and I had no intention of folding as that would be beyon bad. I really overlooked going for overcalls on the river so maybe calling was best, still not sure though.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[synbad13]

[ QUOTE ]
BB is 28/12/4 LAG, other reads aren't reliable.



[/ QUOTE ]

Um, these are not the stats of a loose, aggressive player.

[Dopey]

What are they the stats of then??? This isn't short handed.

I don't consider VPIP of 28 as tight, maybe Slighty Loose is better than Loose.

Certainly not passive, he's more aggressive than me and Im a TAG.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Stinkybeaver]

[ QUOTE ]

99+ is my general PFR limit (exceptions of potential blind steals and certain game situations). Maybe Im losing some EV but its minimal at best and my postflop play with mid-pp is marginal at best



[/ QUOTE ]

You might wanna Look into this. I raise and three-bet against a lag raiser here all the time. Consider the ammount of FE you get by 3-betting. If other players decides to jump inthere well then we still spike a set every now and then.

Also I think you can Raise PF with 88 from EP, maybe even 77. But say someone opens in MP and you act after then the 3-bet is always best.

1. You have position.

2. You take control

3. hopefully you can isolate him something a coldcall almost never accomplishes.

[Ninth Path]

I definitely raise preflop because about the same amount of people see the flop if you raise or don't at party 2/4 i think...so raising gives you a much bigger opportunity to win. You have to think of medium pairs as having more than set value as weak/tight players are taught to think.

Flop play is great. Who cares you gave away your hand. I did like the turn cap, but the more I think about, a thinking/3betting big blind doesn't 3-bet ak on the turn...I think the only hand he three bets on the turn that he would 3 bet preflop is AA. If he had kk qq or jj he wouldn't be this aggressive preflop. And I can't put him on AK when he three bets the turn, especially after how you played the flop. So I just call the turn three bet and the river bet.

[netnode]

Interesting comments / recommendations of pre-flop play.

Just would like to know: how do you argue the pf raising with 88 or even 77 from MP1. You'll flop only occassionally something "nice" like a set or an overpair. Most flops will contain two overcards. If there are 3 or more callers, it's a clear fold, unless checked around.

I would consider folding here pf. I want to make sure to have either a lot of customers or only two or one. And I don't generally like to pay 2 bets pf for this kind of hand. This strategy fits very well to loose passive games (where I spend most of my time.)

VP$IP 11-12%

[Ninth Path]

It's raise or call, and I definitely favor raise...fold is the worst line possible. Please disagree with me...........

[Harv72b]

When it gets to Hero preflop, there is only one other player in the pot. A raise here can serve to protect our hand by cutting down on the number of players who enter the pot behind us...it probably wouldn't have worked in this case with the strength CO wound up showing, but we didn't know that CO had a hand when it got to us preflop.

I see this fallacy a lot--people who look at small/medium pocket pairs as being a "set or fold" proposition. The fact of the matter is, in a HU or even 3-way pot, any pocket pair is a strong hand. It is difficult to make a pair in hold'em, and when you only have 1 or 2 opponents, they are going to miss the flop a lot. If there are already 3 or 4 people in the pot preflop, then yes...limp behind &amp; play for your set/overpair. But when it's only 1 limper to you (or folded to you in MP/LP), raise! If you can get to the flop HU, you have a very good chance of winning the pot UI.

NOTE: smaller pocket pairs, like 44-22, you probably shouldn't raise without specific table conditions that warrant it (tight players behind you, you have a good table image, the limper is either loose or weak/tight). With a hand like that, you're probably in a coinflip against any hand that he limped ahead of you, and there's a decent chance that he actually limped a better PP. And your equity takes a huge nosedive with every player who calls behind you, unless of course you flop your set. But a hand as strong as 88 you should be raising all day, every day in this situation.