Foxwoods questions

[Tommy The Tuna]

I'm a fairly new player. Started around 1st of year. played free games til about end of January, stepped up to the $5 & $10 tourneys online at paradise for about a month, and am mostly playin $1/2 and $2/4 online games now. Only live about an hour from foxwoods and wanna start making some runs down there for their weekly tourneys. what i'm wondering is am i just heading into a shark tank down there? does somebody with my level of playin experience have any shot to finish in the money? its not a big financial committment to get in, i'm just lookin to see what the proper expectations are to bring with me. also, what do they have down there for regular stakes? do they have $1/2 and/or $2/4, or do the games start at $3/6? thanks for any input. lookin forward to hangin here and expanding my knowledge and participation. thanks to Larry Jo Fish for turning me onto this forum.

[leon]

The lowest HE game they regularly spread is 2/4. If you are beating the 2/4 games on Paradise you should crush the foxwoods game. Hell, if you memorize Sklansky's hand rankings you should crush the 2/4 games.

The tournaments are a different story. The weekly tournaments have a whole host of poor players but also many regulars who can all play. The issue I have with tournaments is that the variance is too high- you could play many, many tournaments without finishing in the money, even if you're a favorite. It sounds like you are relatively new to poker and the last thing your fledgling bankroll needs is high variance.

Coupled with this fact, I feel the tournies at the Woods pay out WAY TOO MANY spots. Yeah, it's nice and all to be able to finish "in the money", but frankly I don't really care about just getting my buy-in back. I'd much rather see spots 27-11 cut out completely, and make the prize pool for the final table much larger. If you have a great day (and face it, you need a lot of skill AND luck to win a tournament of any size) you should get something substantial for your efforts. Of course, seeing the look on the nits' faces when they "win" 49$ when the buy-in was 55$ makes you understand why they keep the pay tables this way.

If I were you I'd read up on tournament strategy, and if your bankroll can handle it give it a shot. Be warned, there are good players in the tournaments. If you're looking for mostly fish, stay with the 2/4 game.

Leon

[JTG51]

If you enjoy tournaments then go for it. If you are doing reasonably well in the small Paradise tournaments you'll be fine. You obviously won't be a favorite to win but you'll have as good a chance as many of the players to make the money. As Leon said, there are some very good players and some very bad players that play every week down there.

Mohegan has a tournament every day of the week also. I much prefer Foxwoods for ring games but Mohegan offers several tournaments that Foxwoods doesn't (Omaha 8 and Crazy Pineapple every week along with HOSE once a month). Since I don't play those other games very often, I think the tournaments are a lot of fun.

[ACPlayer]

Crushing the 2/4 game is a bit of a stretch as a lot more overhead has to be dealt with in a casino game (4 dollar rake, dealer/waitress tips etc). If you play tight solid poker you should be able to do win though.

Having said that visiting FW where i play a lot (and is a card room i really like) is worthwhile.

Playing in the tournaments first could be an inexpensive way to get into the feel of playing in a B&M room. Expect good players and high variance if you plan to play tourneys exclusively. I personally pretty much exclusively play live games.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Don't listen to those other guys. The tourney players at Foxwoods aren't very good.

I don't know if it goes all the time or not, but FW does offer 2/4 HE pretty often. I don't believe MS ever has below 3/6. If you like seven stud, both casinos offer 1-3 and 1-5 stud.

Go to cardplayer.com and check out the tourney schedules for both casinos, or go to the casino's own websites foxwoods.com and mohegansun.com. Foxwoods does a much better job of running their events, but both are worth playing at. The no limit HE at Foxwoods on Tuesday nights is the best of all of them. In fact, in my experience, it's the best low buy-in tourney in the world. ~100 players and 3500-4000 to the winner. However, if you wish to insure that you don't lose too much, pick another night with no rebuys or limited rebuys. With the unlimited rebuys on Tuesday, I've seen people spend $300 or more, though the field always averages less than $100.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[leon]

Greg, were you serious when you said the tournie players aren't very good or are you trying to suck a new player in /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

I've played in quite a few limit tournies at the woods but obviously don't have your level of experience. I'm not nearly as strong in no-limit and that fact coupled with the rebuys makes those tournaments unattractive for me. Thus, the following comments might not apply to the Tues tournies.

I feel that at any given time you have about 20 or so people in a field of ~ 100 that can play the game fairly well. When you couple this with the majority of players there that don't have a clue but chase you down quite often, you get a situation where it's not easy to come in the money. I think the poster would do better with the ring games where he is quite a favorite, and can always go back and get more money if he starts off stuck.

Regards,

Leon

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I was both serious and joking. Joking, in that there are some very good players. Serious, in that the majority are rather weak.

I haven't played in any of the weekly events other than the NLH for well over a year, so I can't say my opinions are up to date. However, I am certain that the fields are weak, and that our original poster can't be much below average, if only because he's trying to play his best. Most likely, he's a small favorite compared to the field. And, unlike a ring game, his expenditures are limited and known. Even in a 2-4 game, he could go through $50+ in one orbit, and have never made a bad decision.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[ACPlayer]

Seriously joking or jokingly serious??

Tournament play is always dangerous to your bankroll unless you are in the top .5 or so percent of the field. High variance and negative EV. This is because the money is concentrated in the top 3 spots. Mathematically to survive in tournament play the top few players must swap pieces of each other so that they have a good chance of participating in the top prizes. In fact, i believe, the top pros routinely do this just for this reason.

Having played frequently in the tuesday tourney and finishing in the money 5 out of 7 times this year I am just barely ahead for the year - modal investment 95 dollars max investment 115 dollars. This despite finishing as high as third one week.

Tournment are however great for learning and limiting session loss.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Your profile says you're in Boston. Foxwoods is about 102 miles from Boston. If you can get there "in about an hour," I have one word of caution for you: Rhode Island is one big speed trap. If I were you I'd take the pike to 395.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The limit HE tourney yesterday was a real mix of players. The first table I was at featured 3 players who appeared to have never played hold 'em before, including a couple who played every hand, one of whom kept picking up pots and threw three guys at the table into full-fledged tilt. I managed to sit on my hands until the table broke, but still busted out on the bubble.

[leon]

I can make the woods in 1.5 hrs door to door, speeding but nothing serious (~10 mph over generally). I have found the Pike to be quite annoying and didn't imagine it would be faster.

Is this the case? Pike, to 395 (South?), and where from there? Thanks for the directions in advance.

Leon

[Joe Tall]

Mass Pike to exit 10 - Auburn
Rt. 395 south

Exit 85 (for Foxwoods) Off the exit GO STRAIGHT THROUGH then at the next stop take a left on what I believe it's RT 162 south - "cow path" of a road but a scenic ride. DON'T SPEED!! Take your time, the towns on this route make a killing on drivers rushing down to Foxwoods.


Exit 78 for Mohegan (maybe Exit 77?) but either way it's Mohegan Sun blvd. and will take you straight in.

Keep you eyes out for the brown 'reservation' signs.

Having lived in Boston I believe it's faster to Fox to take Rt 95 south through Rhode Island but to Mohegan, which is 20 mins Southwest, I used to take the Pike to 395, it's more direct.

[JTG51]

The tourney players at Foxwoods aren't very good.

When I said there are some very good players I meant you, and of course me on the rare times when I play. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I certainly agree that the majority of players are on the other side of average.

[leon]

Thanks for the directions. I figured 95 should be faster, but maybe I'll try this way next time.

Leon

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Eh?

3rd place. 4 other finishes in the money. That means 4 times you at least broke even, probably made a little. Twice you didn't make the money, lost about $200 or so. Third place pays at least about $1000. That's a profit of about $800 for 7 tries, or about 100% on your investment.

How do you consider that a small profit?

I think a typical "average" player will lose less if they spent the same hours on tourneys as they currently spend on cash games. Likewise, I think the average player who wins a little would win a little more if they played tourneys.

However, I have zero proof to support my opinion. So, in that sense, I'm unchallengable. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

It depends on where you live. When I lived in Medford, I measured it as 107 miles whether I went 95 or the Pike. I preferred the Pike because I could hop off at a rest area for food or a bathroom easier. If you live south of the city, 95 is faster, north or west, choose the Pike.

Now I live around Providence, so it's only 50 minutes to FW, another 15 or so to Mohegan.

[CrackerZack]

Greg, weren't you mentioned in CardPlayer as the runner up in the pts for being Foxwoods tourney rep to something? Congrats.

As for this, I agree the typical average player will probabaly lose about the same in these LL tourneys than they would sitting in a ring game although I believe its a bit psychologically harder. In a ring game, even if you're losing you have lucky sessions where you leave a big winner. In tournaments, especially NL you have to be consistently lucky to actually finish in the good money. As with many players relyiny on luck, it tends to go up and down and if you finish on a big up, you leave a winner, in a tourney, you can't survive a down.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Yes, thank you. All host casinos for the World Poker Tour got to send one person to the $200K freeroll event in LA a few weeks ago. This tourney was only open to prior WPT winners, WSOP champions, invited celebrities (Meatloaf, Mickey Rooney, etc.), prepaid entrants to the $25K WPT main event, and one representative from each casino who hosted/will host a WPT event.

Foxwoods decided to pick their rep by adding up the money won in all of the Tuesday night NLH tourneys for 2002. I was second by a small margin. What was painful is that the guy who won the invitation won after knocking me out with his JJ vs. my KK, when 12-handed, all-in preflop. If I win that hand, he almost certainly doesn't make the money that night, as he had me covered by less than the amount of the big blind. Whether I go on to win or place high or not, I win the 2002 total contest, and the invitation.

On the plus side, I probably would've had to turn the offer down anyway, since I had a business meeting in Florida at the time of the freeroll.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)