So what's so great about position?

I've been playing NLHE for about a year, and have had decent success. I am basically a tight-aggressive player, bet the goods and mix in a few bluffs. One concept I have never been able to get a good handle on is position. I hear pros on TV make statements like "Position is ecerything." or "90% of my chips in this tourney came from playing position."

But I just don't get it. I see the basic advantage, like picking up an occasional orphan pot if checked around to the button. But how can some players say position is "everything?" I bought HOH and he doesn't even have "position" in his Index, though he refers to it quite often in the text.

Does anyone know of a good way to explain why position is so important and how to use it to your advantage? Hand histories where position is utilized would probably be very helpful as well.

Thanks

Highlander

[einbert]

The great thing about position is that when you have it, you get to act after your opponent instead of before him.

[McMelchior]

Luck evens out. If all hands were played to the end the only winner would be the house.

Information is power. Poker is a game of incomplete information. Your advantage comes from being able to increase the amount of information you have (put your opponents on hands) and decrease the information your opponents are privy to (mislead them in regard to your own hand).

With position you have the advantage of seeing how your opponents act before you give them any information about your own hand. No other single parameter play such a big role in poker.

With position a mediocre player can beat good players simply by playing straight forward poker.

Position gives you the advantage of being able to play more hands preflop - since you know your low pair or suited connectors stand a good chance NOT to be raised.

Position gives you the advantage of being able to play more draws on the flop.

Position gived you the advantage of being able to steal pots preflop and on the flop.

Position gives you the advantage being able to see what your opponents have done and then act according to that information - instead of acting blind.

Why don't you like to "be on the blinds"? Because you're forced to post a bet without having ANY information about neither your nor your opponents hands. Likewise position means not having to bet or call in the dark.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[betgo]

Why don't you read Harrigton's book rather than the index. He discusses position repeatedly. So do Brunson, McEvoy/Daugherty, etc.

[ QUOTE ]

Why don't you read Harrigton's book rather than the index. He discusses position repeatedly. So do Brunson, McEvoy/Daugherty, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, unless you can see what I do when I am reading HOH, and unless what you see is cloudy, and unless you didn't read what I wrote in my post ...

[ QUOTE ]
I bought HOH and he doesn't even have "position" in his Index, though he refers to it quite often in the text.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a useless comment.

Harrington refers often to the advantages of position, but he never discusses in depth why position is an advantage. I am interetsed in the essence of why position is beneficial.

[TomHimself]

No matter where you look for poker advice, everyone always stresses position. However, I feel that many people still don’t truly believe the power of position in no-limit hold’em. In my opinion, position is the single most important thing to consider while you are playing hold’em. Errors in handling position correctly can be very costly to a player’s bottom line. About two weeks ago, I sat down with Taylor and reviewed many of my Poker Tracker stats. When comparing these stats to Taylor, I noticed one major leak in my game. I was playing too loose out of position, especially from the blinds. This was proving to be a costly error to my overall results.

People often unknowingly play loose from the blinds. They rationalize calling a raise by the fact that they have already invested chips in the pot. However, this is faulty reasoning. If anything, you should play extra tight out of the blinds. While you have already invested chips, you should not let that affect your decision. It may slightly increase the pot odds, and that is something to consider at times. On the other hand, the slight increase in pot odds is more than offset by the disadvantage in position. Your main consideration should always be the cards you are holding and the position you will be in for the remainder of the hand.

It is very hard to play marginal hands out of position, especially against experienced players. If you are playing against a player you consider a good player, you need to be even more aware of your position. The players who act behind you will always have the added information they gained by your actions to help make their decisions more effective. I myself will often look to steal pots away from people who play a hand weakly out of position. I use my late position as an advantage to win extra pots. Doing this also creates a loser table image for me. By playing aggressively and stealing from late position, I increase my action when I do play a hand in early position. When I enter a pot from early position or call a raise from the blinds, I often have a very strong hand. The fact that people see me as a maniac player due to my late position play really pays off for me in early position. For instance, I would raise A8o almost every time on the button in an unraised pot. Conversely, I will most likely fold A8o under the gun. A8o is certainty a reasonable hand, especially at a six-handed table, but playing it out of position proves to be too difficult. By playing a hand like A8o out of position, you are setting yourself up to have to make difficult decisions. Making marginal calls or bets when you are the one in the disadvantageous position often results in a money-losing situation.

Attacking from late position is a great strategy in no-limit hold’em. It is very important to be aggressive and apply pressure to the table. Nevertheless, it is imperative to not overdo this aggression by raising or calling with marginal hands out of position. Always think of your position when you are playing a hand. Use position to your advantage, as a good player should, rather than letting it be a downfall in your game as it was in mine.

written by online player muddywater

Very useful information. Thanks.

However, and this is what makes poker such a great game perhaps, I would like to discuss the following:

[ QUOTE ]
Information is power. Poker is a game of incomplete information. Your advantage comes from being able to increase the amount of information you have (put your opponents on hands) and decrease the information your opponents are privy to (mislead them in regard to your own hand).

With position you have the advantage of seeing how your opponents act before you give them any information about your own hand. No other single parameter play such a big role in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

But poker players lie. If you consider being checked to on the button as reliable information, you are subject to a check/call check/raise from someone who has flopped the nuts. Conversely, a player out of position making a bluff at a pot may be erroneously considered strong by the player in position. Moroeover, a bet from position also gives information: the position player may not have a hand, he may just be playing his position. So why is position so important, when your opponents can be using the information that you are playing from position to not respect your calls/raises?

Shortly put, the more information you have the more you know where you stand with your hand.. Also position allows you to steal a lot more pots and it also allows you to not commit any more chips without seeing the action infront of you.. Based on what your opponent's betting patterns and habits are, you can make deductions and use your position to win the pot rather than the cards you have.. also you can lose less when someone seems strong and the move coordinates with his previous betting pattern..

Next to observation, I think it's the most important thing in Hold'em

Of Course, there is an advantage to being out of position and that's being the first person to be able to bet at the pot.. if you're in position and have nothing, it's tough to call a bet from someone who is out of position and made a good bet (even though he might have nothing)

[TomHimself]

Yes If checked to and you bet and get raised you'll fold. But hopefully if you've been playing at the same table with some people you wil have some notes/reads on them and will know how frequently they check/raise with draws or monsters. Position is so important though, you can take control of many pots just from position by raising weak leads, betting when checked to that it all outweighs the one time you get check/raised

[MLG]

In all honesty, try the beginner forum.

[ QUOTE ]

In all honesty, try the beginner forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm not a beginner. I do well at poker. I just have this blind spot about position. I know I am not using position to its full advantage.

[adanthar]

Let's look at this hand I just posted for a minute.

[ QUOTE ]
It's early on in level 3. I have about 1100 in the BB; there's a 'nothing special' EP limper, the 'nothing special' SB completes and I check Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop comes K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The SB leads for 55 into the pot of 90. What's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's rule out folding and say I call or raise. My range for those two actions is gonna be a LOT of cards - any king, some big tens, a big diamond like this one, pair + draws, small flushes, you name it. If he comes over the top he will put me to a tough decision sometimes, but the times he gets called (my calling range vs. his 3 betting range) he is going to be losing very badly. If he just calls, I will be giving him fits on lots and lots of turns. In fact I would say he's best off folding a weak king to a raise.

Now let's say I am the SB. Do you think my hand is anywhere near as strong at all vs. a good BB, not to mention the limper? If you think it is, what am I going to do vs. a BB call or raise on 3/4 of turns?

Thanks, Tom! Very good stuff!

[TomHimself]

no problem, nice post adanthar

[prana]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a beginner. I do well at poker. I just have this blind spot about position. I know I am not using position to its full advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but this is such an oxymoran..........if you don't understand position you ARE just a beginner and i don't care how many hours of poker or how many tournaments you have played it's that simple. It is an understanding concept that defines beginners from experienced players and frankly I have to agree with the person who directed you to the beginners forum because you are a beginer.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a beginner. I do well at poker. I just have this blind spot about position.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I'm not going to write a long post about position, simply beacause it is so fundamental. You can't do well at poker without understanding position. There are many many situations in which position is basically everything.

I don't know how helpful for you are the posts on this thread, as I didn't really read them. I have one practical suggestion though: try playing HU (tournies or cash). Obviously you have only 2 positions, so it's less "complicated". After playing for a while, if you put enough effort and thinking into it, you'll realize the huge different between those 2 positions, PF and on all other streets, and the improtant advantage of "position" (i.e, being last to act the majority of the time), except for in specific situations where it is turned around. I hope it helps.

[ QUOTE ]
OK I'm not going to write a long post about position, simply beacause it is so fundamental. You can't do well at poker without understanding position. There are many many situations in which position is basically everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I earn $2-3000 per month playing poker, so I think I am doing well. But I don't have a good grasp of how best to utilize position. Think of it as a pitcher throwing 100 mph but not really knowing how to pitch (I'm not trying to brag just letting you know I play well but dont have a good grasp of position).

Your idea about playing HU is a good one. I can see how that would help. There are several very well thought out comments in this thread which have helped. Any other thoughts are of course much appreciated.

[Bataglin]

Don't worry, somewhere down the line you will understand. It will sink in with experience. Then you can go back, take a look at this post and get a good laugh.

[Kirkrrr]

From some of the other posts I've read I think a good chunk of it has been covered, but I'll give you these simple scenarios:

You're in an early position with a marginal hand against 3 opponents, and decide to bet. First to you folds, next one raises, and the 3rd player re-raises. You, obviously, fold. Now suppose you're with the same hand but in the last position. First player now checks, second bets, third raises, and you quietly muck your marginal hand without ever having made that first bet and wasted your chips.

[ QUOTE ]
If you consider being checked to on the button as reliable information, you are subject to a check/call check/raise from someone who has flopped the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are, but the number of players who do that often is not that great, first of all. Secondly, again, if you are last to act and it's bet/call on a non draw-heavy board, you're done with the hand most of the time without wasting any more chips. If you're OUT OF POSITION and decide to take a stab at the pot and get called (but not raised) on a draw-heavy board now you have a difficult decision - fire again on the turn, or save it? If you decide not to, can you try to take it down again on the river? With position, a good opponent can slowplay a lot more effectively since he knows he'll have the last action so he can always value bet if checked to twice, or raise if bet into, and has less fear of getting nothing else out of the hand.

Hope this helps. It's way too early for 2+2 so I'm not sure how much sense, if any, I made.

Kirk

So maybe I am getting this position thing. Since it was checked to me on the river, I figured noone had a boat. So I potted it so I didn't have to split the pot. I wasn't worried about MP2 since he only had a few dollars left. Rsiky but still a good example of position play.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($25)
TexUgly ($24.15)
UTG+1 ($24.75)
MP1 ($26.30)
MP2 ($11.25)
CO ($5.05)
Button ($8.75)
SB ($42.15)

Preflop: TexUgly is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
TexUgly calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, FIGHT(33) calls $0.15, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.15) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">FIGHT(33) bets $1.2</font>, BB calls $1.20, TexUgly calls $1.20, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1.20.

Turn: ($5.95) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">FIGHT(33) bets $5.75</font>, BB calls $5.75, TexUgly calls $5.75, MP2 calls $5.75.

River: ($28.95) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
FIGHT(33) checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">TexUgly bets $16.95 (All-In)</font>, MP2 folds, FIGHT(33) folds, BB folds.

FIGHT(33) said, "this is bs"
FIGHT(33) said, "had nuts strght"

Final Pot: $45.90

SB has (straight, ace high).

Outcome: TexUgly wins $45.90. </font>

[TomHimself]

i woulda raised the turn /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Jason Strasser]

Lets play heads up poker where I get the button every hand and you will learn.

-Jason