My name is PokerBob, and 10/20 abuses me

[PokerBob]

i was convinced by a friend to play 10/20. it is the next logical step. i have the roll (or did) and was doing well at 5/10 (2.5bb/100 over my last 45K hands). needless to say it hasn't gone as well as i had hoped. the graph below is my last 3 days. i am running a bit bad, but i gotta believe there is more to it than that. the lagtards are really messing me up, as they 3-bet all the time and now i am stuck OOP with a hand like AJo on an xxx board. if anyone has any words of advice on how to deal with these nuts, i'd love to hear them. thanks.

vpip - 22.9
pfr - 15.5
att2steal - 31.5
wenttoSD - 33.7
won$SD - 47.9
foldSBtoSt - 85
foldBBtoSt - 63

agg:
flop - 2.7
turn - 2.63
river - 1.37
total - 2.36

folded to river bet - 41%


http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7366/3days4nv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[bugstud]

a little too tight though not by much, depends on who you believe though. You're running really bad, reaaaaaaaally bad that wtsd and w@sd are horrific for those vpip/pfr numbers.

[Schneids]

Attempt to steal blinds more you need to do that to make up for the fact you aren't going to get as many freeplays as you would have in 5/10 when you are in the blinds yourself.

I remember when I played in this game any time I went on a losing streak I noticed I tended to be tightening up in steal attempts, and loosening up there specically usually turned things around.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
a little too tight though not by much, depends on who you believe though. You're running really bad, reaaaaaaaally bad that wtsd and w@sd are horrific for those vpip/pfr numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am running bad somewhat, but i do not want to merely dismiss it as bad luck. i agree i am too tight, but i do not give up all that much by not being a 30/20 guy. i may never win at 3bb/100, but 1.5bb/100 is definitely possible. or so i once thought.

[Danenania]

You are obviously running very bad as bugstud says. Other than that there is no simple answer. Read posts. Read the archives. Post hands. Open your mind to new ways of changing and improving your game. Repeat all these as necessary and try to run good--eventually it will click.

[jason_t]

I would say you're running badly.

Less sexy, more ABC until you get your confidence back.

Reply to more hands here.

[stigmata]

As the others said -- looks like your running bad, loosen up a little (a bit at a time), and steal more. You might be calling down to light, but not sure about that.

You can definately win at more than 1.5 if you loosen up just a fraction /images/graemlins/wink.gif

5k hands is nothing in this game -- other posters have been thoroughly repremanded for similar posts!

[Trix]

You are running very bad, but could steal more and probably defend a bit more aswell.

It should be pretty obvious that your true rate isn´t -4/100. I can´t guarantie you that it´s positive, but I would be surprised if it wasn´t and very surprised if you were worse than -1/100.

So if you feel that you are playing well and have the BR, then continue, but there is no shame in going back to 5/100 for a few K hands to regroup.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
5k hands is nothing in this game

[/ QUOTE ]

i realize that, but i find myself in many more "wtf do i do now situatiions" than i have in the past, and that is what bugs me. i've had 150BB drops in the past and they didn't bug me because i KNEW I played well. here i'm not so sure.

[stigmata]

I know the feeling all too well. I guess its one of those things you have to learn to live with.

Just stick to a couple of tables, pay attention, try and get good reads and develop an overall "sense" of the game.

[MicroBob]

how's your table selection?

how many tables are you playing?


Maybe try gradually moving up?
Perhaps just playing SOME 5/10 while also mixing in one juicy 10/20 holiday-weekend table to regain confidence?


I know others may agree with you...but I just don't think the 10/20 games are THAT much different than the 5/10.
More aggressive?? Yes.
Insanely, incredibly different?? I don't think by as great a margin as you do.

In other words...is it possible that you're psyching yourself out a little bit?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

In other words...is it possible that you're psyching yourself out a little bit?

[/ QUOTE ]

this could be

[stigmata]

I've just been playing some 5/10 for the first time in ages right now. Maybe i have been lucky with tables, but there seems to be a world of difference.

[MicroBob]

They really didn't seem THAT different to me.

I found just as many 45/5 donks at either really.
I do get bluff-raised more at 10/20 but it just doesn't seem THAT different to me.

Of course, it is possible I'm the only that has that opinion.
It's also possible that the reason why I have that opinion is because I'm just not a good enough player in the first place to fully notice the differences.

[shant]

There must not be a PokerGod if he makes people as rad as Bob have bad variance.

[PokerBob]

.....but in this little stretch of hell my Won$@SD with 3 of a kind is 50%, and with a flush it is 71%. I have no clue what these should be, but they seem low to me. hmmmmmmm

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
There must not be a PokerGod if he makes people as rad as Bob have bad variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i was sure it was merely variance (getting lotsa sets cracked and such madness), i'd be pissed but OK with it. it's the wondering "am i a [censored] retard" that is tough.

[Fabian]

To quote two of the most important things said earlier in the thread: Less sexy, be open to new ideas to change your game. This is just a bad stretch but you need to improve as well.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

I think you may be folding on the river a bit much. Perhaps they are good folds, but maybe you should fold sooner.

Also, I think you are too easy to rob of your (big)blinds. It seems like somewhere about 40% fold is more like it. When I see someone who folds them 63% its an auto raise.

PT

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you may be folding on the river a bit much. Perhaps they are good folds, but maybe you should fold sooner.

Also, I think you are too easy to rob of your (big)blinds. It seems like somewhere about 40% fold is more like it. When I see someone who folds them 63% its an auto raise.

PT

[/ QUOTE ]

good points i will attempt to address. what should my SB fold to steal be? Should I be calling with KTo from the SB vs an open in the CO?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Less sexy

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually have done virtually zero of the sexy. perhaps i need MORE sexy. sexy for eveyone!!! rejoice in the sexy. maybe i'll just get drunk tonight instead.

[Fabian]

You should not fold 40% in BB to a steal. Standard on these boards seem to be in the 55-60 range, a bit lower for good players. I think 55-60 is a good number for you.

Folded sb to steal should be in the ~85 range.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
vpip - 22.9
pfr - 15.5
att2steal - 31.5
wenttoSD - 33.7
won$SD - 47.9

[/ QUOTE ]

it's just not possible to be bad enough to have stats like this when you're running neutral. you're running bad. very very bad.

[fyodor]

Folding bb to steal seems abnormally high. Maybe you've had a lot of bad cards there. Maybe you're just too tight.

Attempt to steal has got to be at least 35% minimum.

If you are playing 4 tables STOP. Just play 2. If you must play at least 3 add in a 5/10. Don't play 4 till you are winning and comfortable.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think you are too easy to rob of your (big)blinds. It seems like somewhere about 40% fold is more like it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yow! That's pretty loose. If someone says they are having a bad run and are constantly being put in tough spots by tricky aggressive opponents, I would say that playing more bad hands out of position is not the answer.

[MicroBob]

I'm not looking mine up and am not sure what these should be either...


but keep in mind that these stats are kind of deceiving.

If you have QJ on a TTT43 board then you it still counts as 3 of a kind.

(likewise...if you have JT on a board of AA432 then you're final hand is a pair-of-aces...even though in your head you are likely to think of it as "I got J-high" or "i got nuthin")

If you have any flush-card on a 4-flush board then this obviously still counts as a flush.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vpip - 22.9
pfr - 15.5
att2steal - 31.5
wenttoSD - 33.7
won$SD - 47.9

[/ QUOTE ]

it's just not possible to be bad enough to have stats like this when you're running neutral. you're running bad. very very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

like i did against you? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
sexy for eveyone!!! rejoice in the sexy.

[/ QUOTE ]


this is easily the most important post in all of 2+2 in a long long time.

[Beowulf]

When you are running bad poker can seem like a different game. Some of the Aggression you keep referring to is inherent to 10/20 but I think more of it is the fact that your running bad and they have it. Most of the time when you get 3 bet with AJ you can check/call, check/fold. Even the 40/23 guys aren’t 3 betting that light and if they are cap it and go from there. I am sure your game needs some adjustments but I think it’s a bad idea to make too many when your perception of the game is out of wack. Just practice good table selection and keep playing your game.

[arkady]

I am not thrilled about your river aggression, something seems off.

This may or may not explain your depressingly low won at sd %, which is typically a sign of running poorly. Even with an "ok" 41% river bet, there might be things to reevaluate. 10/20 players value bet/bluff at river with more tenacity than their 5/10 counterparts.

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
but i find myself in many more "wtf do i do now situatiions" than i have in the past

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, to a large degree, a symptom of running badly IMO. Hope things turn around for you soon.

Nigel

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sexy for eveyone!!! rejoice in the sexy.

[/ QUOTE ]


this is easily the most important post in all of 2+2 in a long long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is easily the best post you've ever made. I read the whole thing! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
You should not fold 40% in BB to a steal. Standard on these boards seem to be in the 55-60 range, a bit lower for good players. I think 55-60 is a good number for you.

Folded sb to steal should be in the ~85 range.

[/ QUOTE ]

What type of numbers are people seeing when filtering for "steal attempted anbd called/re-raised"?

My suspicion is that the standard on 2+2 involves folding the blinds too much given the high ASB's of most players, but when I tried to get a discussion going on mid-high but nobody was interested, maybe I can get one going here.

Nigel

[Catt]

I haven't taken the 10/20 plunge yet, but I've got to believe that:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vpip - 22.9
pfr - 15.5
att2steal - 31.5
wenttoSD - 33.7
won$SD - 47.9

[/ QUOTE ]

it's just not possible to be bad enough to have stats like this when you're running neutral. you're running bad. very very bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anytime my WTSD is reasonable (and yours is - and may in fact be low) and my W$SD is that low, I know I am running like a person very, very unsexy.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

Others think that only folding 40% in BB is a bit loose, but it has worked so far for me. Just catching stealer out of line once and getting paid makes up for at least 5 or 6 check/folds. I think that this happens that often. [My bets/100 in BB is (.09)]

I fold 85% in SB. KTo is a fold against a reasonable CO...unless I'm in the mood to have fishy BB call 2 and 3-bet.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

[ QUOTE ]
Yow! That's pretty loose. If someone says they are having a bad run and are constantly being put in tough spots by tricky aggressive opponents, I would say that playing more bad hands out of position is not the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But it does seem like when you take a flop w/ them, a lot of these guys will not ever fold before river and it is not that unusual to win 6 or 7 SBs to compensate for all the whiffs. Some of these guys seem to take it personally when taken out of the lead.

Perhaps I will not feel that way after another 100k hands...I only have about 50k in 10/20 so far

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
Others think that only folding 40% in BB is a bit loose, but it has worked so far for me. Just catching stealer out of line once and getting paid makes up for at least 5 or 6 check/folds. I think that this happens that often. [My bets/100 in BB is (.09)]

I fold 85% in SB. KTo is a fold against a reasonable CO...unless I'm in the mood to have fishy BB call 2 and 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pheasant,

Is you (.09) your overall in the BB? What's your WR when you filter for steal attempted?

Nigel