Overheard in New Orleans

[scdavis0]

"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[jakethebake]

Sleeping on the ground is the worst of their worries?

[cadillac1234]

I can't say I blame them.

I get pissed waiting for the cable guy to show up between 12-4pm.

[krazyace5]

"Hell, yeah!"

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight. People who should have left their fricking below sea level death traps before the storm hit are complaining as they wait for someone else to rescue them from their stupidity. hmmmm....

[battschr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight. People who should have left their fricking below sea level death traps before the storm hit are complaining as they wait for someone else to rescue them from their stupidity. hmmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]
Not everyone had the means to get out.

[krazyace5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight. People who should have left their fricking below sea level death traps before the storm hit are complaining as they wait for someone else to rescue them from their stupidity. hmmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thought when I saw them complaining on the first day or two. After almost a week though, I think they have a right to complain.

[miajag81]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight. People who should have left their fricking below sea level death traps before the storm hit are complaining as they wait for someone else to rescue them from their stupidity. hmmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...they did leave their homes and went to the Superdome, as they were told to by those in charge.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm...they did leave their homes and went to the Superdome, as they were told to by those in charge.

[/ QUOTE ]

they were told to evacuate. the superdome thing was after the fact.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight. People who should have left their fricking below sea level death traps before the storm hit are complaining as they wait for someone else to rescue them from their stupidity. hmmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thought when I saw them complaining on the first day or two. After almost a week though, I think they have a right to complain.

[/ QUOTE ]

the length of time doesn't change what got them there.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very true. of the hundreds of thousands of people still in NO, there are an isolated few that should not be lumped in wwith the others that didn't leave.

[CardSharpCook]

It is amazing to me how entitled people in this country feel. Ok, your city has been flooded. You expect immediate evacuation, a place to stay, and free food. Why? This all takes a predictable few days to a week and you are angry? Why? Why do you believe this things are coming and what gives you the right to be angry at its delay? Like it or not, you are a begger. You are homeless and helpless. It is not for you to show anger at those who do not help you within what you've determined is an acceptable time. It is for you to show immense gratitude for what help you do receive. It is for you to bless this country for all that it is doing for you and will continue to do for you.

CSC

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they could walk then they did have the means to get out. Walk just a few miles from anywhere in NO, and you will be on land that is above sea level. The below sea level part of NO is not really all that big (just densely populated).

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very true. of the hundreds of thousands of people still in NO, there are an isolated few that should not be lumped in wwith the others that didn't leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

30% of the state lives in poverty. I would think its more than just a few.

just look at the % of people they show on TV that are missing multiple teeth. Id say that if your missing some teeth, your more likely to not be able to leave.

[Tron]

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we are America.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very true. of the hundreds of thousands of people still in NO, there are an isolated few that should not be lumped in wwith the others that didn't leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

30% of the state lives in poverty. I would think its more than just a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know how poverty is defined in this country? It's defined by the govt as something like <$30k/yr for a family. It's ridiculous.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
It is amazing to me how entitled people in this country feel. Ok, your city has been flooded. You expect immediate evacuation, a place to stay, and free food. Why? This all takes a predictable few days to a week and you are angry? Why? Why do you believe this things are coming and what gives you the right to be angry at its delay? Like it or not, you are a begger. You are homeless and helpless. It is not for you to show anger at those who do not help you within what you've determined is an acceptable time. It is for you to show immense gratitude for what help you do receive. It is for you to bless this country for all that it is doing for you and will continue to do for you.

CSC

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a natural human reaction to be angry when terrible things happen to them. It doesn't matter if their anger is justified.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very true. of the hundreds of thousands of people still in NO, there are an isolated few that should not be lumped in wwith the others that didn't leave.

[/ QUOTE ]

30% of the state lives in poverty. I would think its more than just a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know how poverty is defined in this country? It's defined by the govt as something like <$30k/yr for a family. It's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats for big families:


PRELIMINARY ESTIMATE OF WEIGHTED AVERAGE POVERTY THRESHOLDS FOR 2004
Size of Family Unit Estimated Threshold
1 person (unrelated individual)...................................………… . $9,643
Under 65 years .................................................. ..........……. 9,827
65 years and over .................................................. .....…….. 9,060

2 people .................................................. .......................….. $12,335
Householder under 65 years ….................................………… 12,714
Householder 65 years and over ................................………… 11,429

3 people .................................................. .......................….. $15,071
4 people .................................................. .......................….. 19,311
5 people .................................................. .......................….. 22,837
6 people .................................................. .....................……. 25,791
7 people .................................................. ....................…….. 29,304
8 people .................................................. ....................…….. 32,430
9 people or more .................................................. ........……… 38,659



source (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/04prelim.html)


do reaserch before making claims like that please.

[cadillac1234]

[ QUOTE ]
It is amazing to me how entitled people in this country feel. Ok, your city has been flooded. You expect immediate evacuation, a place to stay, and free food. Why? This all takes a predictable few days to a week and you are angry? Why? Why do you believe this things are coming and what gives you the right to be angry at its delay? Like it or not, you are a begger. You are homeless and helpless. It is not for you to show anger at those who do not help you within what you've determined is an acceptable time. It is for you to show immense gratitude for what help you do receive. It is for you to bless this country for all that it is doing for you and will continue to do for you.

CSC

[/ QUOTE ]


<Edited for bad word getting through censor filter)

The government and it's agencies are there for 1 damn thing and that is to serve it's citizens.

FEMA exists to help our citizens in time of need. There is no other reason for them to exist. They get well funded to provide support as needed.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm...they did leave their homes and went to the Superdome, as they were told to by those in charge.

[/ QUOTE ]

they were told to evacuate. the superdome thing was after the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't exactly accurate. The Superdome thing was set up in advance, and people were told to go there if they couldn't find the means to get out of the city. City officials expected a lot of people to show up, and they still didn't make solid enough preparations for an event that lasted more than a couple of days.

To me, that's a bit odd. On the one hand, we have all these officials telling us that "This is what we feared," and "We knew the system most likely wouldn't be able to hold up against a Category 5 hurricane." Yet on the other hand they say, "We didn't plan for people to use the Superdome for more than a couple of days, and now it's not safe there, so we must evacuate the shelter we recommended people go to in the first place."

Ah.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
This was my thought when I saw them complaining on the first day or two. After almost a week though, I think they have a right to complain.

[/ QUOTE ]

News Flash: The big levee break (17th Street Canal) occurred on August 30th. Today is September 2nd. That means it has been THREE DAYS since the major flooding began. Last I checked, a week is a lot longer than 3 days.

If you watch the news 24/7, it may seem like a week, but it is only 3 days.

[cadillac1234]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they could walk then they did have the means to get out. Walk just a few miles from anywhere in NO, and you will be on land that is above sea level. The below sea level part of NO is not really all that big (just densely populated).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been well documented on the news sites that police will not allow any exit from NO on foot which I don't understand.

Besides these people were told to go to the Convention Center by authorities after the flooding. They followed the rules and were abandoned.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]

source (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/04prelim.html)
do reaserch before making claims like that please.

[/ QUOTE ]

the 30% number is not based on your linked definition. the ones that are based on that definition are here (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/pov/new46_100125_01.htm) and look to be about half that.

so, research and stuff

[CardSharpCook]

It is also true that many people simply have no other place to go. All of their extended family is either out of touch or living in NO. You've got to both have someone you can stay with out-of-state and the means to get there. Not everyone has that.

New Orleans is a huge city, you're ont going to walk out of it.

Poverty is an obvious and serious problem in NO, perhaps more so than most US cities.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

source (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/04prelim.html)
do reaserch before making claims like that please.

[/ QUOTE ]

the 30% number is not based on your linked definition. the ones that are based on that definition are here (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/pov/new46_100125_01.htm) and look to be about half that.

so, research and stuff

[/ QUOTE ]


well i heard the 30% number from the news. I assumed they were close to accurate /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
It's been well documented on the news sites that police will not allow any exit from NO on foot which I don't understand.

Besides these people were told to go to the Convention Center by authorities after the flooding. They followed the rules and were abandoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read what you wrote. Now you can understand why it was the local officials, the mayor, and the governor who screwed up big time here. Why are they keeping their people prisoners?

They blew it, and the feds have to clean up their mess.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

source (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/04prelim.html)
do reaserch before making claims like that please.

[/ QUOTE ]

the 30% number is not based on your linked definition. the ones that are based on that definition are here (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/pov/new46_100125_01.htm) and look to be about half that.

so, research and stuff

[/ QUOTE ]

im not 100% sure how to read this, but it looks like a weighted person count. Also the standard error looks to be above avg.

[cadillac1234]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been well documented on the news sites that police will not allow any exit from NO on foot which I don't understand.

Besides these people were told to go to the Convention Center by authorities after the flooding. They followed the rules and were abandoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read what you wrote. Now you can understand why it was the local officials, the mayor, and the governor who screwed up big time here. Why are they keeping their people prisoners?

They blew it, and the feds have to clean up their mess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right. Bush is a saint, the Feds did nothing wrong and we live under a gumdrop sky of GOP happiness.

Can we just save $36B next year by writing FEMA out of the Federal Budget?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been well documented on the news sites that police will not allow any exit from NO on foot which I don't understand.

Besides these people were told to go to the Convention Center by authorities after the flooding. They followed the rules and were abandoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read what you wrote. Now you can understand why it was the local officials, the mayor, and the governor who screwed up big time here. Why are they keeping their people prisoners?

They blew it, and the feds have to clean up their mess.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, this isn't accurate either. The "feds" were also not letting people walk out, at least that's how I have seen it reported a few times. This seems to be a decision made somewhere in the upper leadership. :shrug:

I don't get it, and it doesn't matter to me (right now) who is responsible for it. If it's the city's fault, shame on them. If it's the feds fault, shame on them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/AngryCola/billplas.jpg

My guess is that it's a little bit of both, but the decision to not let people walk out was not a good one, IMO, regardless of who made it.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

source (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/04prelim.html)
do reaserch before making claims like that please.

[/ QUOTE ]

the 30% number is not based on your linked definition. the ones that are based on that definition are here (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/pov/new46_100125_01.htm) and look to be about half that.

so, research and stuff

[/ QUOTE ]

in 1999 it was 19.6%, 7.2% above the nations average.

source (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/22000.html)

and 1999 in NO specificly it was 27.9% lived in poverty.

that is prolly what the 30% was reffering to, which makes sense why so many people didnt leave.

source (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/22/2255000.html)

[Broken Glass Can]

The big mistake by the mayor and governor was not getting people out before the storm hit. They just let people stay in a below sea level area, waiting for a potentially devastating flood. Their actions since have just compounded their initial mistakes.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Similar situation made me angry too. After the tsunami they interviewed a group of healthy Norwegians (prob. with fat visa cards) at the airport in Thailand, complaining they had to wait one day for a plane out of the country, calling it a scandal. That was 1 day after more than 200,000 died, and the airport was needed to transport injured patients and aid.

Some guys just don't look longer than their nose.

[krazyace5]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/index.html


Heres a good interview with the mayor, seems he is trying his best.

Also scroll down to see an interview with Fema director.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they could walk then they did have the means to get out. Walk just a few miles from anywhere in NO, and you will be on land that is above sea level. The below sea level part of NO is not really all that big (just densely populated).

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so they walk out of town. Now what do you expect them to do? Stand outside during the hurricane

[cadillac1234]

From FEMAs Press Conference yesterday. Brown is either a certified idiot or FEMA needs Cable TV

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- Diverging views of a crumbling New Orleans emerged Thursday, with statements by some federal officials in contradiction with grittier, more desperate views from the streets. By late Friday response to those stranded in the city was more visible.

But the conflicting views on Thursday came within hours, sometimes minutes of each of each other, as reflected in CNN's transcripts. The speakers include Michael Brown, chief of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, evacuee Raymond Cooper, CNN correspondents and others. Here's what they had to say:

Conditions in the Convention Center

# FEMA chief Brown: We learned about that (Thursday), so I have directed that we have all available resources to get that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water and medical care that they need. (See video of Brown explaining how news reports alerted FEMA to convention center chaos. -- 2:11)

# Mayor Nagin: The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies for the 15,000 to 20,000 people. (Hear Nagin's angry demand for soldiers. 1:04)

# CNN Producer Kim Segal: It was chaos. There was nobody there, nobody in charge. And there was nobody giving even water. The children, you should see them, they're all just in tears. There are sick people. We saw... people who are dying in front of you.

# Evacuee Raymond Cooper: Sir, you've got about 3,000 people here in this -- in the Convention Center right now. They're hungry. Don't have any food. We were told two-and-a-half days ago to make our way to the Superdome or the Convention Center by our mayor. And which when we got here, was no one to tell us what to do, no one to direct us, no authority figure.

Uncollected corpses

# Brown: That's not been reported to me, so I'm not going to comment. Until I actually get a report from my teams that say, "We have bodies located here or there," I'm just not going to speculate.

# Segal: We saw one body. A person is in a wheelchair and someone had pushed (her) off to the side and draped just like a blanket over this person in the wheelchair. And then there is another body next to that. There were others they were willing to show us. ( See CNN report, 'People are dying in front of us' -- 4:36 )

# Evacuee Cooper: They had a couple of policemen out here, sir, about six or seven policemen told me directly, when I went to tell them, hey, man, you got bodies in there. You got two old ladies that just passed, just had died, people dragging the bodies into little corners. One guy -- that's how I found out. The guy had actually, hey, man, anybody sleeping over here? I'm like, no. He dragged two bodies in there. Now you just -- I just found out there was a lady and an old man, the lady went to nudge him. He's dead.

Hospital evacuations

# Brown: I've just learned today that we ... are in the process of completing the evacuations of the hospitals, that those are going very well.

# CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta: It's gruesome. I guess that is the best word for it. If you think about a hospital, for example, the morgue is in the basement, and the basement is completely flooded. So you can just imagine the scene down there. But when patients die in the hospital, there is no place to put them, so they're in the stairwells. It is one of the most unbelievable situations I've seen as a doctor, certainly as a journalist as well. There is no electricity. There is no water. There's over 200 patients still here remaining. ...We found our way in through a chopper and had to land at a landing strip and then take a boat. And it is exactly ... where the boat was traveling where the snipers opened fire yesterday, halting all the evacuations. ( Watch the video report of corpses stacked in stairwells -- 4:45 )

# Dr. Matthew Bellew, Charity Hospital: We still have 200 patients in this hospital, many of them needing care that they just can't get. The conditions are such that it's very dangerous for the patients. Just about all the patients in our services had fevers. Our toilets are overflowing. They are filled with stool and urine. And the smell, if you can imagine, is so bad, you know, many of us had gagging and some people even threw up. It's pretty rough.(Mayor's video: Armed addicts fighting for a fix -- 1:03)

Violence and civil unrest

# Brown: I've had no reports of unrest, if the connotation of the word unrest means that people are beginning to riot, or you know, they're banging on walls and screaming and hollering or burning tires or whatever. I've had no reports of that.

# CNN's Chris Lawrence: From here and from talking to the police officers, they're losing control of the city. We're now standing on the roof of one of the police stations. The police officers came by and told us in very, very strong terms it wasn't safe to be out on the street. (Watch the video report on explosions and gunfire -- 2:12)

The federal response:

# Brown: Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well.

# Homeland Security Director Chertoff: Now, of course, a critical element of what we're doing is the process of evacuation and securing New Orleans and other areas that are afflicted. And here the Department of Defense has performed magnificently, as has the National Guard, in bringing enormous resources and capabilities to bear in the areas that are suffering.

# Crowd chanting outside the Convention Center: We want help.

# Nagin: They don't have a clue what's going on down there.

# Phyllis Petrich, a tourist stranded at the Ritz-Carlton: They are invisible. We have no idea where they are. We hear bits and pieces that the National Guard is around, but where? We have not seen them. We have not seen FEMA officials. We have seen no one.

Security

# Brown: I actually think the security is pretty darn good. There's some really bad people out there that are causing some problems, and it seems to me that every time a bad person wants to scream of cause a problem, there's somebody there with a camera to stick it in their face. ( See Jack Cafferty's rant on the government's 'bungled' response -- 0:57)

# Chertoff: In addition to local law enforcement, we have 2,800 National Guard in New Orleans as we speak today. One thousand four hundred additional National Guard military police trained soldiers will be arriving every day: 1,400 today, 1,400 tomorrow and 1,400 the next day.

# Nagin: I continue to hear that troops are on the way, but we are still protecting the city with only 1,500 New Orleans police officers, an additional 300 law enforcement personnel, 250 National Guard troops, and other military personnel who are primarily focused on evacuation.

# Lawrence: The police are very, very tense right now. They're literally riding around, full assault weapons, full tactical gear, in pickup trucks. Five, six, seven, eight officers. It is a very tense situation here.

[malokoman]

exactly

[Michael Davis]

"It is amazing to me how entitled people in this country feel. Ok, your city has been flooded. You expect immediate evacuation, a place to stay, and free food. Why? This all takes a predictable few days to a week and you are angry?"

No, sorry, it shouldn't take this long to get everyone out. The military should have been in the city instantly. All of this is perhaps hindsight, but there were people who predicted what would happen here almost exactly. There should have been food and water ready to be dropped and the military ready to go in and institute martial law. The anger in this case is totally justified, the government and we as a country have completely let these people down.

It absolutely does not matter whether it was their "fault" for staying in the city, or whose fault it is for the city being under sea level, or whatever. Every resource in this country should have been mobilized to help these people, and that includes shutting down air service and ordering all planes to New Orleans or whatever the hell it takes to get those people out as soon as humanly possible.

You want people to show gratitude for a job that is poorly done? No. Sorry. The anger is justifiable because the job has been a joke.

-Michael

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]


If they could walk then they did have the means to get out. Walk just a few miles from anywhere in NO, and you will be on land that is above sea level. The below sea level part of NO is not really all that big (just densely populated).

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a guy on the news last night who lives 30 miles from the coast. At the peak of the storm surge, water was almost up to his 2nd floor.

[touchfaith]

I case anyone is looking for local video (http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/video/yahooPlayer.pl)

News conference in progress.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Sleeping on the ground is the worst of their worries?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about being without food, water, or any kind of shelter, or plumbing/ toilet, with corpses around you in 90 degree heat? you try any one of those for one day, please. I'm sure you never have.

[Cumulonimbus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they could walk then they did have the means to get out. Walk just a few miles from anywhere in NO, and you will be on land that is above sea level. The below sea level part of NO is not really all that big (just densely populated).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow you should think your opinions through before you say them. Watch the news. Do you see the countless elderlies injured and dead? I know many old people whose whole world is their home. It's all they got. Many of these old people don't have families to take care of them. So they stay in their home during a hurricane and [censored] their Depends as they pray to God they make it through.

Secondly, you have a stubborn, ignorant view on stupid people. I've dealt with many stupid people in my life, and I've realized one thing: they don't like being stupid. Consider this - did they make a conscious decision to be stupid? Maybe when they were kids in the ghetto they didn't pay attention in class - they were kids man! Fault them for that, or fault the educational system. I know kids in the ghetto, and their schools generally suck. There's a reason rich schools in wealthy neighborhoods produce smart kids. There's a reason poor schools in ghettos produce unintelligent kids. Do you see the reasons?

Most of these poor people's lives, their whole world, is their city block. Outside of that, they're lost. So they stay together with their neighbors, the only people they love and trust, and hope they can weather the storm.

And New Orleans is big man, one can't just "walk a mile" to get out of it. Sure, the people in the suburbs can, and I bet they did. But not the people in the innercity ghettos, the ones who are truly hurting and in need of help. I'm not flaiming you, but you gotta open your mind man.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight. People who should have left their fricking below sea level death traps before the storm hit are complaining as they wait for someone else to rescue them from their stupidity. hmmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

it's amazing how much you remind me of bush. not just a rabid ideologue (there's lots of those of all stripes), but totally incapable of any form of expression other than self-congratulation and pot-shots, on top of a complete absence of any concern for factual reality--even the non-contentious, time and place type true facts. we got notice on saturday morning that the hurricane changed direction and was now coming right at us instead of at northern FL, and would start to hit sunday night. it's pretty impressive how many people got out in that little time span. and it's sort of understandable how such a radically revised prediction might seem less than fully certain to many people. and there are a hell of a lot of poor people in NO who even if they wanteed to leave didn't have a car, or at least a car that was reliable for more than 2 miles, or a place to stay, or money for a hotel room in texas or georgia. and NO is not a great place of a city, but neither is san francisco, or the rest of the gulf coast, or much of Los Angeles. unfortuantely cities don't get made up in advance by brilliant researchers and planners. I hope you wish death and destruction on all those places too. and I look forward to your mouthing off about investment bankers who are supposed to be rescued when they regattas hit squalls or their mountain climbing camps get hit by blizzards. you are the best argument against democracy I know.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they could walk then they did have the means to get out. Walk just a few miles from anywhere in NO, and you will be on land that is above sea level. The below sea level part of NO is not really all that big (just densely populated).

[/ QUOTE ]

which places did you mean? the bonnet carre spillway? or the middle of I-10 between la place and gonzales? would you take your grandmother and little kids out there with you? do you just make this idiocy up to try to be funny?

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm...they did leave their homes and went to the Superdome, as they were told to by those in charge.

[/ QUOTE ]

they were told to evacuate. the superdome thing was after the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't exactly accurate. The Superdome thing was set up in advance, and people were told to go there if they couldn't find the means to get out of the city. City officials expected a lot of people to show up, and they still didn't make solid enough preparations for an event that lasted more than a couple of days.

To me, that's a bit odd. On the one hand, we have all these officials telling us that "This is what we feared," and "We knew the system most likely wouldn't be able to hold up against a Category 5 hurricane." Yet on the other hand they say, "We didn't plan for people to use the Superdome for more than a couple of days, and now it's not safe there, so we must evacuate the shelter we recommended people go to in the first place."

Ah.

[/ QUOTE ]

it amazes me how many people just fabricate stories as if they were factually true. does this practice get you far in life? nagin went to great pains NOT to declare any shelters in NO. the reason was because if he declares a shelter wwell in advance he knows that more people will figure they don't have to leave. he wanted as many as possible out, and was relatively successful, in part by trying to convince them there was no alternative. the dome was not set up in advance as a shelter for people who didn't ahve anything convenient as a refuge. rather, it was a shelter only for "special needs" meaning inability to travel due to medical condition or disability. he waited till the last day to call it a refuge of last resort. that still meant you need to hitchike if you have to. they knew that the superdome is no place for 20,000 people to live when they have no home to go to. NO did not ahve the resources or a suitable place to house that many people indefinitely. it is a poor city, filled with poor people. should every city be able to house 10-20% of it's population in shelters. try to grasp the concept of insurance. if we have one central source of planning andn evacuation sufficient for one or two cities, we don't need 20 or 50 cities each duplicating the facilities that ony a couple will ever need. there were days of advanced notice and days of calm afterwards to plan and execute support and evacuation. there won't be that kind of leeway if a cataclysmic terrorist strike comes. I hope you enjoy your administration and their press conferences and back patting. if they can't evacuate the superdome with 5 days of leeway, you're really going to enjoy it when a WMD strike hits a major metropolis.

[BruinEric]

[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I have read more than one first-person report of people DECLINING offers of "rides out of town" even as warnings grew more urgent.

I would guess that a solid plurality of people who stayed are those who:

1) Didn't actually believe the dire predictions, they've heard similar before. (heard in several survivor interviews).

The rest, I would categorize thusly:

2) Wanted to stay to protect property / businesses, etc.

3) Had serious physical issues making an evacuation difficult.

4) Really, really wanted to leave but just couldn't figure out how nor could afford any way out.

5) Do not have the mental capacity, whether through illness or drug/alcohol abuse, to understand and act.

6) Wanted to stay and loot.

Those who suggest that all, or even a great majority of these refugees are part of category #4 above are probably wrong. Just my opinion.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was my thought when I saw them complaining on the first day or two. After almost a week though, I think they have a right to complain.

[/ QUOTE ]

News Flash: The big levee break (17th Street Canal) occurred on August 30th. Today is September 2nd. That means it has been THREE DAYS since the major flooding began. Last I checked, a week is a lot longer than 3 days.

If you watch the news 24/7, it may seem like a week, but it is only 3 days.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's 3 days to get 10-30,000 people in the superdome into a place with plumbing, light, and water. the us military could have 20,000 troops on the ground in outer mongolia in 24 hours. yet they couldn't get more than a couple thou nat'l guard into a domestic city with 2 days advanced notice, and a clear dry path with no traffic no flooding (I rode out that way on tuesday) from baton rouge, up hwy 90, over the miss river bridge right to the convention ctr and s dome. actually it's not that they couldn't...--you and W, real "character".

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been well documented on the news sites that police will not allow any exit from NO on foot which I don't understand.

Besides these people were told to go to the Convention Center by authorities after the flooding. They followed the rules and were abandoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read what you wrote. Now you can understand why it was the local officials, the mayor, and the governor who screwed up big time here. Why are they keeping their people prisoners?

They blew it, and the feds have to clean up their mess.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's outrageous that people this stupid/dishonest are allowed to vote.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
the us military could have 20,000 troops on the ground in outer mongolia in 24 hours

[/ QUOTE ]

last week I believed this, I no longer do.

I really don't think they have it together as much as we've all been led to believe.

[istewart]

AngryCola:

I'll be the first to give you credit for the Plaschke cameo. Well done.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been well documented on the news sites that police will not allow any exit from NO on foot which I don't understand.

Besides these people were told to go to the Convention Center by authorities after the flooding. They followed the rules and were abandoned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read what you wrote. Now you can understand why it was the local officials, the mayor, and the governor who screwed up big time here. Why are they keeping their people prisoners?

They blew it, and the feds have to clean up their mess.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, this isn't accurate either. The "feds" were also not letting people walk out, at least that's how I have seen it reported a few times. This seems to be a decision made somewhere in the upper leadership. :shrug:

I don't get it, and it doesn't matter to me (right now) who is responsible for it. If it's the city's fault, shame on them. If it's the feds fault, shame on them.

My guess is that it's a little bit of both, but the decision to not let people walk out was not a good one, IMO, regardless of who made it.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't put 30,000 people on the street with nowhere to eat or sleep. they get at least a little support in teh s dome. imaging how much more anarchy there would be. and most people probably couldn't make the 90 mile walk to baton rouge. or wouldn't know how to get there or which routes are passible.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
The big mistake by the mayor and governor was not getting people out before the storm hit. They just let people stay in a below sea level area, waiting for a potentially devastating flood. Their actions since have just compounded their initial mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, do they really let people like you vote? that is what's outrageous.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the us military could have 20,000 troops on the ground in outer mongolia in 24 hours

[/ QUOTE ]

last week I believed this, I no longer do.

I really don't think they have it together as much as we've all been led to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure of it personally, I'm just taking the word of an army major physician friend of mine. according to him, in germany he has been put on immediate notice several times to stay within 2 hours of landstuhl and be ready to fly with airborne in that window to africa, such as for the conflict in liberia and the floods in mozambique. the delay of days and weeks is not for the troops to pack, it's for the politicians to pull the trigger.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the us military could have 20,000 troops on the ground in outer mongolia in 24 hours

[/ QUOTE ]

last week I believed this, I no longer do.

I really don't think they have it together as much as we've all been led to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure of it personally, I'm just taking the word of an army major physician friend of mine. according to him, in germany he has been put on immediate notice several times to stay within 2 hours of landstuhl and be ready to fly with airborne in that window to africa, such as for the conflict in liberia and the floods in mozambique. the delay of days and weeks is not for the troops to pack, it's for the politicians to pull the trigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is no acceptable excuse for the shortage of troops/police in NO. none. its INSIDE THE US. they knew what was coming. its mind boggling.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not everyone had the means to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I have read more than one first-person report of people DECLINING offers of "rides out of town" even as warnings grew more urgent.

I would guess that a solid plurality of people who stayed are those who:

1) Didn't actually believe the dire predictions, they've heard similar before. (heard in several survivor interviews).

The rest, I would categorize thusly:

2) Wanted to stay to protect property / businesses, etc.

3) Had serious physical issues making an evacuation difficult.

4) Really, really wanted to leave but just couldn't figure out how nor could afford any way out.

5) Do not have the mental capacity, whether through illness or drug/alcohol abuse, to understand and act.

6) Wanted to stay and loot.

Those who suggest that all, or even a great majority of these refugees are part of category #4 above are probably wrong. Just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

My gut would say that the majority here would fall into #1. I grew up in Miami, Florida, got out right before Andrew hit in '92. I have many friends and family (some who lost everything) state that they were just gotta weather the storm and "you know it's not gonna be THAT bad... we have em every year and you know it". People sometimes just get so oblivious to things they see over and over. It's unfortunate when time after time, the threats end up being nothing and then the people don't move when crap really hits the fan.

[BruinEric]

[ QUOTE ]

there is no acceptable excuse for the shortage of troops/police in NO. none. its INSIDE THE US. they knew what was coming. its mind boggling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think the problem was NUMBERS, but that effectiveness was hampered by circumstance, training, planning or all of those.

First off, the entire NOPD was deployed, and weren't 1200 Natl Guard troops also deployed the first day after flooding? So you have the entire police force along with another supplemental force.

Add in LA State troopers and TX wardens pitching in and you immediately had a lot of force in terms of numbers alone.

The primary problem was transportation and places to go. Many squad cars, etc. were underwater, leaving officers on foot -- where were they gonna go exactly to enforce the peace?

Also, communications infrastructure was totally screwed up. You can read this on that blog by the guy running that network center in a high-rise. Police couldn't communicate. HUGE problem here.

Furthermore, NOPD training or decision-making weren't equipped to handle the near-impossible situation. Clearly none of them wanted to start shooting people on sight. And no police officer could really arrest somebody with no place to take them, book them, hold them, etc. What is the threat an officer can give when he's on a street corner filled with a powder-keg of people. He's not gonna kill these folks. And he can't exactly threaten to arrest them. He can't call for backup, and he can't ask for his commander's instructions. All he can do is try to what???

I agree that the security situation had/has spiraled out of control and surely could have been handled better. But I hear the obstacles these folks have been facing and know most are trying their best.

Bottom line IMHO, I don't know how prepared we'll ever be for a problem like this one. Disaster combined with huge complications in travel, communication, etc, combined with the disruptive influence of thugs shooting and desperate refugees panicking.

[BruinEric]

[ QUOTE ]
People sometimes just get so oblivious to things they see over and over. It's unfortunate when time after time, the threats end up being nothing and then the people don't move when crap really hits the fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, all us folks in CA are perfectly prepared for an Earthquake.

uhhh...

...Think I'll get a disaster preparedness box packed this weekend.

[BeerMoney]

Nice post Eric.

[STLantny]

Anyone who thinks that the government should shut down all and any resources, should go down and help out themselves.
Its easy to play monday morning quarterback.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you enjoy your administration and their press conferences and back patting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who are you talking to? Yourself? Someone else? Is it just easier for you to group everyone you disagree with into the same political affiliation? Does that provide you with comfort when your ideas are challenged?

I don't let this administration off the hook for ANYTHING. However, I also don't think there's much point in pointing fingers right now. The problem still exists, so the blame game can wait. Frankly, it amazes ME that some people on these forums love trying to peg me as someone who spouts propaganda for both dems and now republicans. I hate both parties, and it is just plain silly of you to make such baseless assumptions.

[ QUOTE ]

it amazes me how many people just fabricate stories as if they were factually true. does this practice get you far in life?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if this question wasn't written in such a juvenile and condescending manner, I suppose that I would have to take it seriously. As it stands, the only answer I will give you is that I only know what the mass media reports. The mass media was reporting the Superdome's planned use as a shelter for some time before the hurricane hit. Do I think that I ever get the best picture of reality through the mass media? No. But it has to do in most cases. Why? Because I am not one of the people involved in the response to this crisis. My opinion, much like yours, means exactly squat.

Also, it AMAZES me that people like you, who love to condemn others for being stupid and uninformed, can't seem to figure out something as simple as a paragraph break.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
where are these people expecting to sleep if they burn the city down?

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
I case anyone is looking for local video (http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/video/yahooPlayer.pl)

News conference in progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another press conference...dude ripped the hell outta FEMA.

bout time.

[DougShrapnel]

These people are messed up, someone i know is there helping out. He has a search and rescue dog. He has been shot at twice. ANd had all his food and water stolen, including the dog food and dog medicine. Who steals from the people trying to help them?

[Ipodkid]

I say it just shows that blacks are indeed as advertised.

[Cumulonimbus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em" — words that brought shouts of "Hell, yeah!" from those around him. He added: "We've been sleeping on the [censored] ground like rats. I say burn this whole [censored] city down."

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
where are these people expecting to sleep if they burn the city down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think their idea is that they'd rather be happy with anarchy than the government that is place. Hence, this idea is more important than where they're gonna sleep. (On a side note, ashes can make a comfortable mattress.)

[Mat Sklansky]

It does? Please do elaborate.

[Cumulonimbus]

Sure, I'll elaborate. For one, all the anarchists I know are so die-hard about their views that absolutely nothing else takes precidence over anarchy. Most, if not all of them would die for it.

Secondly, I assume that the majority of these people are used to living on the streets. They're used to living the "hard life" that most of us are not used to. Many of them have lived on the streets. And I don't see much of a difference between sleeping in a box on Elm St. than sleeping under a lean-to under an actual Elm tree.

These people are serious about their views, no matter how stupid we view them as. And I believe that they are prepared to live without assistance from our government, simply out of the hate that they have for it . . . because they know that when it comes to Americans, they have it the worst.

[Mat Sklansky]

It's a good elaboration, but I was actually asking your upstairs neighbor to defend his blatantly racist comment. I mean when I see a "black" advertised she is usually sexy beyond belief. I'm just not sure that all these black women I see on tv are are really representative of the whole race.

I'm sure he'll have an explanation that satisfies me.

[Cumulonimbus]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a good elaboration, but I was actually asking your upstairs neighbor to defend his blatantly racist comment. I mean when I see a "black" advertised she is usually sexy beyond belief. I'm just not sure that all these black women I see on tv are are really representative of the whole race.

I'm sure he'll have an explanation that satisfies me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh sweet, you should use the Quote button Mat!

[garyjacosta]

I grew up 45 miles outside New Orleans, and my family still lives there. With the suffering and desparation going on in the city, I can gurarantee you that the neigboring towns are not excited about the idea of a mass exodus of people aimlessly wandering out of the city. That is why people are not allowed to just leave. If people start walking without a designated shelter and a welcoming comittee EXPECTING them in their city, these people are still as desparate and destitute as they were in the city. Then the looting and violence spreads to the surrounding areas, further exasperating the situation.

The way this situation has been handled is a disgrace. Governor Blanco, IMO, failed the people of New Orleans. I am also upset at the way Bush has handled the siutation. It seems to me that he thinks the best way to offer support is by treating this as a big pep rally. (We're gonna build a "Greater City of New Orleans", all the while posing with a smug smile for the cameras)

[cadillac1234]

[ QUOTE ]
I grew up 45 miles outside New Orleans, and my family still lives there. With the suffering and desparation going on in the city, I can gurarantee you that the neigboring towns are not excited about the idea of a mass exodus of people aimlessly wandering out of the city. That is why people are not allowed to just leave. If people start walking without a designated shelter and a welcoming comittee EXPECTING them in their city, these people are still as desparate and destitute as they were in the city. Then the looting and violence spreads to the surrounding areas, further exasperating the situation.

The way this situation has been handled is a disgrace. Governor Blanco, IMO, failed the people of New Orleans. I am also upset at the way Bush has handled the siutation. It seems to me that he thinks the best way to offer support is by treating this as a big pep rally. (We're gonna build a "Greater City of New Orleans", all the while posing with a smug smile for the cameras)

[/ QUOTE ]

He was a cheerleader...It comes naturally

Duh, dude...I'm sure all the people left in NOLA just said, "Awww, screw it. I'm watching that marathon of Celebrity Poker Showdown; I ain't goin' nowhere".

After reading your stupid post, I'm glad the f-ing Nationals are in last place!

[Al P]

When a city is under 20 feet of water it's just as hard to get into as it is to get out of.

[tech]

Gambler dealt lucky hand

By Joan Treadway
Staff writer

Steve Huff, a resident of Oklahoma who arrived in New Orleans last weekend for a blackjack tournament at Harrah's Casino, said Friday that he was eliminated from the competition, but had returned home with something better than money--his life.

Huff, 53, an independent oil producer who lives near Tulsa, said there were several times during his stay in the city, which was prolonged by Hurricane Katrina, when he thought he might not survive one ordeal or another. But each time people or circumstances intervened to save him.

"I was just a coin flip away from becoming one of those people in the shelters, or from dying," he said.

He rode out the hurricane Monday in the high rise Loews Hotel downtown, worried that the window of his 19th floor room might blow out. Several windows did shatter in the height of the storm and guests had to be moved to other areas of the hotel. But Huff's windows just leaked a little.

When the storm ended, he felt a short-lived relief. Then he realized that he might run out of the medicine he needs to prevent seizures before he could fly out of town and before any drugstores in the storm-ravaged city would open.

A chance encounter with another guest, a Vietnam veteran with medical problems of his own, solved Huff's dilemma. The local man gave him a few days worth of neurotin from his own supply. Huff only knew his first name, Billy.

But Tuesday brought another crisis. That morning, the hotel's managers announced that the Loews had to be evacuated, because of the threat of fire -- the city's water system had been shut down -- and because flood waters were starting to rise downtown.

The hotel had nearly 200 guests and only one working elevator, powered by a back up generator. So there was a rush to leave, he said.

Managers told New Orleans residents, who had taken shelter there, to leave the city quickly by way of the Crescent City Connection. Many of them had cars parked in the adjoining garage, he said.

The out of towners were told that they would be driven by hotel employees in their own cars, although no one knew where they would end up.

As Huff fled down the stairs, carrying only a pillow case containing his medicine and a few other possessions, he met a woman with a bunch of keys whom he mistakenly thought was a Loews employee. He asked if she could take him out in her car and she agreed.

She loaded him, a couple and their two babies in her SUV and they took off, crossed the bridge heading west.

Along the way, Huff learned that the woman driver whom he knew only as Elizabeth, had a teenage son, a double amputee, who lived in a health care center. The 14-year-old had refused to evacuate with her, and she was afraid that he wouldn't survive the storm and its aftermath.

When the little group eventually reached Jennings, later Tuesday, there was only one hotel room with two beds available and they all squeezed in. Wednesday morning, "we split up and went our separate ways," he said.

Huff was able to rent a car and drive to Houston's George Bush Airport where he booked a flight and returned home to his wife late Wednesday night.

That night he had a nightmare about his experiences. "I dreamed I was still in New Orleans and couldn't get out," he said.

And even later during the day Friday, as he watched the news, he said that he had the feeling that he was still back there: "I'm traumatized and shell-shocked."

He is grateful he was able to escape, and is empathetic to the suffereing people he sees on television. And he said he wil never forget "the angels."

[MyTurn2Raise]

No one is immune...everyone relaxed that first day. Apparently, they didn't see the levee break coming.
Mayor/ police allowed looting to start without setting proper boundries. Perhaps, they should've opened up the food stores themselves and declared other places off limits.

Governor didn't activate troops quick enough.

FEMA guy (Brown??) is a complete @$$ clown that couldn't run a fire drill in a telephone booth. Poor communication skills the whole way round--didn't know people were at the convention center; he cannot be serious?

Bush/big wigs...dragged @$$. Should've seen how out of control it was right away and taken over. They seem to be 36 hours late for their job.

New Orleans survivors...It's tough to get on them, but take some self responsibility. If you're relying on the government, you will get screwed nearly every time. Band together and don't let thugs take over. Don't exaggerate and lie...Who else saw the one guy Geraldo interviewed who said the people hadn't received any food or water yet as the lady next to him ate an MRE and drank a bottle of water?

I see fault everywhere. Tough situation...tough to be perfect.

Of course, new facts might emerge that change everything and I can be completely wrong. I just fear where I would be if I happened to move to New Orleans a few months earlier than I planned (I was supposed to move there in November.)

[MyTurn2Raise]

BTW...I didn't mention the media because we all know they suck