Middle Pair + Overcard

I'll be playing 3/6 or 4/8 live tonight and have difficulty with this tyoe of situation.

I come out of the SB or BB with a hand like K7 unsuited.

Flop comes J74r.

I am first to act. What is my line on the flop? Does this change if 2 of a suit is on the board?

LLL

You need so much more information before you can expect a real answer

I'll be playing 3/6 or 4/8 live tonight and have difficulty with this type of situation.

I come out of the SB or BB with a hand like K7 unsuited.
Lets assume it has been unraised preflop and 4-6 players see the flop. Typical mix of live 3/6 players (some LAPs some LAGS).

Flop comes J74r.

I am first to act. What is my line on the flop? Does this change if 2 of a suit is on the board?

Any other info required?

LLL

Fold preflop.

[W. Deranged]

4-6 is a very vague range for number of players.

I will say this.

3 handed I'm leading this flop every time. You certainly rate to have the best hand. Betting out protects your hand, and gains value when opponents make bad calls with overcards, gutshots, dominated stuff and so on. If you get raised, I would tend to simply check-fold the turn in a small pot, particularly if the flop does not feature a flush draw. If it does, and my opponent is known to be somewhat tricky and/or capable of raising draws, I may donk-bet the turn with the intent of folding to a raise in an effort to avoid giving free cards. I'll often show this hand down against aggro. opponents.

6 handed I'm almost never leading this flop. Someone has a J way too often. I'm checking and reevaluating based on the future action. If it's a bet and a raise back to me, it's an easy fold. An early position bet followed by a few calls would probably encourage a call, as I'm looking to improve on the turn. If it's checked to a late position players who is known to be aggro. and/or take shots, occasionally I'll check-raise the flop.

Four and five are tougher. I doubt I'm leading into a five man field often. I'll lead into a four man field more often, but not always. This is a tough hand to play out of position because it's hard to tell whether it's ever good and at the same time it's easy to be forced off it when it is in fact the best hand. If in doubt, I tend to be more inclined to bet the more straightforwardly my opponent's play. If my opponents will usually only raise me if they have a J or better and usually call with draws, worse 7s, etc... I'm happy to bet, as I can fold easily to a raise (edit: on the turn unimproved). In a big field, though, with many tricky players behind me, I'm more inclined to check because: it's less likely the flop will get checked through; I prevent myself from automatically being raised off the best hand; I avoid putting in money in what could be a raise-fest; I reserve the right to check-raise a late position lag bet and so on and so forth.

Realize that betting the flop in a lot of hands actually puts you in a position where you DON'T have a lot of control. It's kind of a "weak lead," and by doing so you in fact give your opponents the initiative by letting them react to you (note they are in position and you have a hand that's not really good enough to put a whole lot of bets in). Automatically betting out on these flops is not good, because you'll often find yourself betting the flop but never getting to a showdown.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

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Folding K7o out of the big blind in a unraised pot is decidedly -EV. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In all seriousness, in a multiway pot this is probably fine to call in the small blind as well in a 1-2 blind structure game. I'm folding in the small blind at $3/6 but calling at $4/8 and certainly at a 2-3 game like $15/30.

haha...missed the "BB" part. I'd probably stay in from the BB, SB I still don't really like K7o...I don't know.

[ QUOTE ]
4-6 is a very vague range for number of players.

I will say this.

3 handed I'm leading this flop every time. You certainly rate to have the best hand. Betting out protects your hand, and gains value when opponents make bad calls with overcards, gutshots, dominated stuff and so on. If you get raised, I would tend to simply check-fold the turn in a small pot, particularly if the flop does not feature a flush draw. If it does, and my opponent is known to be somewhat tricky and/or capable of raising draws, I may donk-bet the turn with the intent of folding to a raise in an effort to avoid giving free cards. I'll often show this hand down against aggro. opponents.

6 handed I'm almost never leading this flop. Someone has a J way too often. I'm checking and reevaluating based on the future action. If it's a bet and a raise back to me, it's an easy fold. An early position bet followed by a few calls would probably encourage a call, as I'm looking to improve on the turn. If it's checked to a late position players who is known to be aggro. and/or take shots, occasionally I'll check-raise the flop.

Four and five are tougher. I doubt I'm leading into a five man field often. I'll lead into a four man field more often, but not always. This is a tough hand to play out of position because it's hard to tell whether it's ever good and at the same time it's easy to be forced off it when it is in fact the best hand. If in doubt, I tend to be more inclined to bet the more straightforwardly my opponent's play. If my opponents will usually only raise me if they have a J or better and usually call with draws, worse 7s, etc... I'm happy to bet, as I can fold easily to a raise. In a big field, though, with many tricky players behind me, I'm more inclined to check because: it's less likely the flop will get checked through; I prevent myself from automatically being raised off the best hand; I avoid putting in money in what could be a raise-fest; I reserve the right to check-raise a late position lag bet and so on and so forth.

Realize that betting the flop in a lot of hands actually puts you in a position where you DON'T have a lot of control. It's kind of a "weak lead," and by doing so you in fact give your opponents the initiative by letting them react to you (note they are in position and you have a hand that's not really good enough to put a whole lot of bets in). Automatically betting out on these flops is not good, because you'll often find yourself betting the flop but never getting to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, this is exactly the type of info i was looking for!

Follow-up question. So I check/fold in a group of 5 or 6 unless the better is the one closing the action, correct?

LLL

Call if you're getting the right odds to draw. 8:1 approximately I think.

[jstewsmole]

Raise if its the type of player that will bet on the end when checked to or if hes litlle more aggro than ur usual low stakes player.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-6 is a very vague range for number of players.

I will say this.

3 handed I'm leading this flop every time. You certainly rate to have the best hand. Betting out protects your hand, and gains value when opponents make bad calls with overcards, gutshots, dominated stuff and so on. If you get raised, I would tend to simply check-fold the turn in a small pot, particularly if the flop does not feature a flush draw. If it does, and my opponent is known to be somewhat tricky and/or capable of raising draws, I may donk-bet the turn with the intent of folding to a raise in an effort to avoid giving free cards. I'll often show this hand down against aggro. opponents.

6 handed I'm almost never leading this flop. Someone has a J way too often. I'm checking and reevaluating based on the future action. If it's a bet and a raise back to me, it's an easy fold. An early position bet followed by a few calls would probably encourage a call, as I'm looking to improve on the turn. If it's checked to a late position players who is known to be aggro. and/or take shots, occasionally I'll check-raise the flop.

Four and five are tougher. I doubt I'm leading into a five man field often. I'll lead into a four man field more often, but not always. This is a tough hand to play out of position because it's hard to tell whether it's ever good and at the same time it's easy to be forced off it when it is in fact the best hand. If in doubt, I tend to be more inclined to bet the more straightforwardly my opponent's play. If my opponents will usually only raise me if they have a J or better and usually call with draws, worse 7s, etc... I'm happy to bet, as I can fold easily to a raise. In a big field, though, with many tricky players behind me, I'm more inclined to check because: it's less likely the flop will get checked through; I prevent myself from automatically being raised off the best hand; I avoid putting in money in what could be a raise-fest; I reserve the right to check-raise a late position lag bet and so on and so forth.

Realize that betting the flop in a lot of hands actually puts you in a position where you DON'T have a lot of control. It's kind of a "weak lead," and by doing so you in fact give your opponents the initiative by letting them react to you (note they are in position and you have a hand that's not really good enough to put a whole lot of bets in). Automatically betting out on these flops is not good, because you'll often find yourself betting the flop but never getting to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, this is exactly the type of info i was looking for!

Follow-up question. So I check/fold in a group of 5 or 6 unless the better is the one closing the action, correct?

LLL

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In a wide field, particularly if there's a bet followed by some callers, it is often best to simply think of this hand as a drawing hand with 5 pretty clean outs. Take off the turn if you are getting about 8-1 effective and have little chance of being check-raised behind you. Don't get too crazy starting to add in implied odds with hands like this because they are susceptible to redraws and such.