Are these hands that different? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

09-02-2005, 02:14 PM

Hey guys I am having a little trouble with the totally opposite responses given in two recent threads describing similar hands. They both involve using your position to raise a LP bettor on the flop, to try to get the it HU with the LP bettor. People hated hand 1, but loved hand 2. I know that the hand in 2 is stronger, but is that much better of a stiuation to make this play? I personally think both aren't that great b/c 1) The pots are small 2) Both hands have weak draws to better hands. I always thought of this play as good when, 1)The pot is big 2)We have some chance of being ahead, and if not our draw is getting enough odds to call, so we might as well to clean up our outs. Would really help if you guys could discuss the best situations for this kind of play and help me figure out what I'm missing.

HAND 1
[ QUOTE ]
I'm strictly going by position in this hand. I don't think that that is a bad play; what are the forums thoghts?

Having played it the way I did, what do you think about my turn fold? I won't explain my actions until later.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

HAND 2
[ QUOTE ]
all participants besides me have vp's in 40s and fairly passive. was the preflop completion bad? was the flop checkraise okay?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

SmileyEH

09-02-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know that the hand in 2 is stronger

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty much covers it for me.

-SmileyEH

09-02-2005, 02:29 PM

I know that the fact that Hand 2 is better makes it a better play then hand 1. I guess my real question is to get more sense of how people feel about hand 2. Do you consider hand 2 as a default play that should always be making in this small pot, against loose passive opponents? I have been adding this play more recently to my game, and the only time recently that I can think I called a button raise from the SB J /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in a 5-6 handed pot , The flop is like T97, one /images/graemlins/heart.gif , it was checked to the button who bet and I raised. And that seems obvious. I'm just trying to figure out what people think is the cutoff for making this play +EV.

W. Deranged

09-02-2005, 04:49 PM

I think I play hand #2 the same as you did, but only if I think that there's a pretty good chance MP3 is betting out with something other than a J (like at least a good 40% of the time).

I think I mentioned in the original post why I thought hand #1 was a train wreck.