Is George Bush ultimately responsible [Archive]

Exsubmariner

09-02-2005, 02:07 PM

Since this is an inane thread, I thought I might try to contribute.

Disclaimer, nothing I say is earthshaking or new. I am echoing things I have heard in other sources that happen to ring true with me.

I think the voters of New Orleans are getting right now what they voted for. The voters have put in politicians in New Orleans who were incompetent and corrupt. They allowed a largely ineffective police force and criminal justice system to thrive and give jobs to incompetant and corrupt police and lawyers. I saw a cop crying, CRYING, on national TV last night. That man should have NEVER been a police officer. But because of politically correct hiring practices, and institutionalized incompetance of the local government, there he is out there failing to protect and serve the voters of New Orleans.

The Governer of LA is also another prime example. Once again, there crying on TV and without an effective plan of what to do. The Mayor, after having pleaded with everyone to evacuate scant hours ahead of the storm can do nothing except point the finger at someone else.

The levy system in New Orleans failed. For ten years at least, the Army Corps of Engineers has warned the state and city of New Orleans about the issues involved. There have been ten years of overly bureacratic, overly regulated largely ineffective government programs wasting the tax payers money on bloated contractor estimates of what it will take to make the levy system in New Orleans sound. Suprise, those big government projects didn't work.

This catastrophe is a witness to the inherent weaknesses of our political process. When you accept corruption is systemic and you look the other way this is what happens. When you institute politically correct agendas concerning the hiring and training of public servants, this is what happens. When you campaign based on emotional issues, this is what happens.

The great weakness of the American political process is that politicians are not required to be leaders. We are witnessing the results.

X

BeerMoney

09-02-2005, 02:12 PM

AWESOME POST!!!!!!!!!!

Post of the week at least.

Autocratic

09-02-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think the voters of New Orleans are getting right now what they voted for. The voters have put in politicians in New Orleans who were incompetent and corrupt. They allowed a largely ineffective police force and criminal justice system to thrive and give jobs to incompetant and corrupt police and lawyers. I saw a cop crying, CRYING, on national TV last night. That man should have NEVER been a police officer. But because of politically correct hiring practices, and institutionalized incompetance of the local government, there he is out there failing to protect and serve the voters of New Orleans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know why he was crying? Was it just a shot of him crying and that was it, and you made the assumption that this officer was not doing his job? Had his family been killed? Had a partner of his been shot dead by a roving gang? Or was he just crying because he's a big pussy? Was that it?

BeerMoney

09-02-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Do you know why he was crying? Was it just a shot of him crying and that was it, and you made the assumption that this officer was not doing his job? Had his family been killed? Had a partner of his been shot dead by a roving gang? Or was he just crying because he's a big pussy? Was that it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. Although he could have been crying cause he got sucked out on by a 1 outer when his opponent called 4 bets on the turn.

andyfox

09-02-2005, 02:21 PM

You're right, the guy's perfect, he never does anything wrong.

CCass

09-02-2005, 02:30 PM

Why should all of the blame fall to the Federal Government?

The Governor of Louisiana has ~7,000 National Guard Troops at her disposal. When did she activate them?

The Mayor of New Orleans was asking about Greyhound buses earlier. How many of his NO Transit Authority buses are currently running?

A lot of this tragedy has been misshandled on many levels. There is plenty of blame to go around.

MaxPower

09-02-2005, 02:47 PM

I just read this article (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313) .

The author claims that most of the work didn't get done because of federal spending issues.

Exsubmariner

09-02-2005, 02:55 PM

Oh, I was wrong. It hasn't been 10 years, it's been 40. That means somewhere in NO, there is a public official who has had a whole career to know about this problem and fix it. I rest my case.

X

Exsubmariner

09-02-2005, 04:41 PM

You know, I once had to put out a fire. A big one. Someone standing next to me caught on fire and was severly injured. You know what, I did my job, what I had to do, and put out the fire. I got through it and then I felt sorry about the guy next to me.

I don't care if the cop lost members of his family, his partner, whatever. There is no one in New Orleans right now who is not in the same situation. It was plain to me he did not have the mental fortitude or moral character to be meeting the requirements demanded by his job. So in answer to your question, yes, that cop was being a big pussy.

X

cadillac1234

09-02-2005, 04:52 PM

Nicholasp27

09-02-2005, 04:53 PM

actually, bush said last year that he didn't care where osama is or if he was captured

krazyace5

09-02-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I once had to put out a fire. A big one. Someone standing next to me caught on fire and was severly injured. You know what, I did my job, what I had to do, and put out the fire. I got through it and then I felt sorry about the guy next to me.

I don't care if the cop lost members of his family, his partner, whatever. There is no one in New Orleans right now who is not in the same situation. It was plain to me he did not have the mental fortitude or moral character to be meeting the requirements demanded by his job. So in answer to your question, yes, that cop was being a big pussy.

X

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooohhh, you put out one man on fire... kudos.

This guy is seeing his home destroyed, friends and family dieing, bodies floating down the road, maybe some of his friends. You think this guy hasn't seen some bad [censored] before this? Most likely, but you putting out a guy on fire and comparing it to this is ridiculous. Also this guy has probably had minimal food, drink, and sleep for the past week, that would make anyones mental fortitude waver.
At least he has the character to stay and try to do his job while 60% of his co-workers packed it in and left.

You say pussy, I say hero.

hurlyburly

09-02-2005, 05:10 PM

Absolutely! And here's why I think so...

9/11
Formation of dept of homeland security

What if this had been a dirty bomb in Atlanta, Boston or Detroit?

This is a perfect illustration of how obviously ill-prepared we would be for another assault on the scale of 9/11.

The coordination of the evacuation of NO was lax and non-existent. Basically those who had the means left, the rest were left behind.

What would have happened if groups of terrorists had breached the levies during Mardi gras, with several million people trapped?

5 years ago it was inconceivable to everyone that an event like 9/11 could occur. Then it was promised that we'd be ready for it next time. Well here's the next time, diferent source, same results and miserable failure by the government to make good.

This does illustrate how ill prepared we are for another strike, despite assurances to the contrary.

hurlyburly

09-02-2005, 05:13 PM

Did the fire last a week and destroy the city you love and kill thousands? And did you run out of water and try to pat out the fire with your hands?

Exsubmariner

09-02-2005, 05:21 PM

Sure, lots of people have lived through circumstances and faced things much more dangerous than I have and probably ever will. You've got me there.

My point is that of all people, a police officer should know deep down that you can't break down in this kind of stress. If you do, it drastically lessens your chances to survive. What's more, it lessens the chances of those who are relying on your help have to survive. The people who are in that kind of role need to trained to cope in that kind of scenario. If they aren't, might as well expect the city will be controlled by the gangs, which is exactly what has happened.

Hero my ass. The present situation speaks for itself.

X

Roybert

09-02-2005, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I once had to put out a fire. A big one. Someone standing next to me caught on fire and was severly injured. You know what, I did my job, what I had to do, and put out the fire. I got through it and then I felt sorry about the guy next to me.

I don't care if the cop lost members of his family, his partner, whatever. There is no one in New Orleans right now who is not in the same situation. It was plain to me he did not have the mental fortitude or moral character to be meeting the requirements demanded by his job. So in answer to your question, yes, that cop was being a big pussy.

X

[/ QUOTE ]

A sceptic might suggest that you only questioned the cop crying so that, later on in the thread, you could let us revel in your amazing tale of (exceedingly professional) bravery. You win. You are truly a (n exceedingly professional) hero.

Exsubmariner

09-02-2005, 05:42 PM

Roybert,
I honestly don't give [censored] what anyone on this board thinks of me. Especially a someone who is going to wait in the background to snipe at me in order to degrade my personal experiences. Tell you what, I will never share any tales from my past again, regardless of how they may shape my opinions. I don't care where anyone else is coming from either, hell, let's just argue.

X

SheetWise

09-02-2005, 05:42 PM

You will find the FEMA/Homeland Sec redesign in the 9/11 Commission Report ... which if I'm not mistaken ... Bush wanted to take slowly, and his opponents pressed to have immediately implemented in its entirety ...

I don't think the federal response was bad. The local and state was abysmally inept. Check the historical response of FEMA. It was good response not even taking into consideration a missing bridge, highway, and airport out of a city with two access points.

Myrtle

09-02-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
for the catastrophic failure of the federal government to adequately respond to the unfolding crisis in New Orleans in the wake of Katrina?

[/ QUOTE ]

He may not be responsible, but he is accountable for the failure........

cadillac1234

09-02-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You will find the FEMA/Homeland Sec redesign in the 9/11 Commission Report ... which if I'm not mistaken ... Bush wanted to take slowly, and his opponents pressed to have immediately implemented in its entirety ...

I don't think the federal response was bad. The local and state was abysmally inept. Check the historical response of FEMA. It was good response not even taking into consideration a missing bridge, highway, and airport out of a city with two access points.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please take a look at this interview with Bush's Appointee Brown and tell me if you still think this way.

This is literally one of the most amazing disconnects I have ever seen...

Brown should be kicked in the groin (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html)

here is just a snipet from todays press conference:

Regarding the Convention Center

FEMA chief Brown: We learned about that (Thursday), so I have directed that we have all available resources to get that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water and medical care that they need.

Roybert

09-02-2005, 06:23 PM

You first called a cop a pussy because you saw him crying on national TV during one of the darkest moments in his country's history, even though you admitted you didn't know anything about his situation.

You then tell a 'parallel' story which shows how you, in a 'similar' situation succeeded where he failed, and somehow I'm the one who is souring the discourse by questioning your motives?

DVaut1

09-02-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I saw a cop crying, CRYING, on national TV last night. That man should have NEVER been a police officer. But because of politically correct hiring practices, and institutionalized incompetance of the local government, there he is out there failing to protect and serve the voters of New Orleans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling out a cop for being a crying pussy in New Orleans right now?

This board has reached a new low, and it's full of outlandish racist crap right now...this is just as bad.

No limits to the right-wing tough-guy rhetoric I guess. Calling liberals out for being pussies is one thing.

But police officers? Yikes...

Exsubmariner

09-02-2005, 06:34 PM

There is obviously some greatness inside you Roybert that is struggling to get out. Maybe you should run for mayor of New Orleans or Governor of LA.

Zeno

09-02-2005, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the voters of New Orleans are getting right now what they voted for.

[/ QUOTE ]

True statement, but it applies to more than just New Orleans. I attended a science conference in Nawlins in the late 80's. Learned much about the area at that time. What is even more interesting is that a co-working, who recently spent two years there doing a clean up job, and I were comparing 'notes' and issues about New Orleans and the surrounding area before the Hurricane hit. Our predictions at work were essentially right on.

[ QUOTE ]
The levy system in New Orleans failed. For ten years at least, the Army Corps of Engineers has warned the state and city of New Orleans about the issues involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been known by many people for decades, if not longer. New Orleans is a classic example that was often used in geology and/or geography classes about the ultimate inane situations that cities (people) put themselves in - Due to a variety of factors, from lack of understanding of natural process to local tradition and ties to place and land to the lazy hope that chance (or God) will spare 'us'.

I recently posted about (in this forum, I think) the grand catastrophe that will happen when the Mississippi breaks out down the Atchafalaya (or river capture by the Atchafalaya). This will be an event on a truly grand scale when all that water careens straight south, rumbles to the west of Baton Rouge, threatens Lafayette, New Iberia, Morgan City, and a host of other smaller towns before booming into the Gulf of Mexico full of Sound and Fury. What a laugh that will be. Break Out Baby (http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/oldriver.htm). There is plenty of information about this online if anyone is interested. But I doubt that people are. Few listen and even less care. I don't. I doubt if any one would even read this very simple link I posted, let alone do any serious information study.

Here is another interesting link about Hurricanes, the North Atantic Oscillation (NAO) and other weather patterns and how they are linked, or not - etc.Hurricanes and Weather (http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~jelsner/www/) [plus interesting sublinks like 'Risk Prediction Initiative']. Science research that is more often than not ignored, and usually done by people like Wacki and I. And what a hoot it all is.

Le Misanthrope

Phat Mack

09-02-2005, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I recently posted about (in this forum, I think) the grand catastrophe that will happen when the Mississippi breaks out down the Atchafalaya (or river capture by the Atchafalaya). This will be an event on a truly grand scale when all that water careens straight south, rumbles to the west of Baton Rouge, threatens Lafayette, New Iberia, Morgan City, and a host of other smaller towns before booming into the Gulf of Mexico full of Sound and Fury.

[/ QUOTE ]

A great book: The Control of Nature, by John McPhee. Also discusses the brilliance of Californian house sites.

Zeno

09-02-2005, 09:33 PM

I read a John Mcphee book long ago, I think it was Assembling California. I'll add The control of Nature to my reading list. I'll get to about the time of the Second Coming of Jesus, but not any sooner.

[ QUOTE ]
Also discusses the brilliance of Californian house sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Andy Fox listening? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Zeno

leehrat

09-02-2005, 09:34 PM

i'd just like to say that exsubmariner's post was excellent. spot on analysis sir.

09-02-2005, 10:26 PM

Plenty of blame to go around. The Federal response to this disaster in Bush's own words are unacceptable. He should be held accountable to some degree for the inadequate response. Furthermore, the LA heads of state (governor/mayor/local officals) have demonstrated little if any leadership qualities. It seems everyone is pointing the finger at somebody else and nobody wants to take control of the situation and fix this mess.

newfant

09-02-2005, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Plenty of blame to go around. The Federal response to this disaster in Bush's own words are unacceptable. He should be held accountable to some degree for the inadequate response. Furthermore, the LA heads of state (governor/mayor/local officals) have demonstrated little if any leadership qualities. It seems everyone is pointing the finger at somebody else and nobody wants to take control of the situation and fix this mess.

[/ QUOTE ]

The city of New Orleans is under water. Do you expect the Mayor to pull 100 buses out of his anus? The biggest hurrican in history has just ripped through LA. Do you think that the leaders of NO and LA have adequate resources to do anything? Likely not.

The federal government does have the resources to help but Bush sat on his ass until yesterday. Bush's and the federal government's response was totally pathetic. Pray that you are never caught in a national disaster while Chimpy is on one of his many vacations. You won't get any help until you are almost dead. And that's if you are lucky.

09-02-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The city of New Orleans is under water. Do you expect the Mayor to pull 100 buses out of his anus? The biggest hurrican in history has just ripped through LA. Do you think that the leaders of NO and LA have adequate resources to do anything? Likely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite sure how you can equate leadership with pulling 100 buses out of one's anus. I think the fact that 1/3 of New Orleans police is AWOL is indicative of poor leadership somewhere down the chain and that cannot be blamed on Bush.

[ QUOTE ]
The federal government does have the resources to help but Bush sat on his ass until yesterday. Bush's and the federal government's response was totally pathetic. Pray that you are never caught in a national disaster while Chimpy is on one of his many vacations. You won't get any help until you are almost dead. And that's if you are lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you refer to our President as chimpy. I don't like him either and would not trust him with a brown paper bag let alone a national emergency. But chimpy? You can come up with a better name than that.

cardcounter0

09-02-2005, 11:30 PM

How about his old college nickname, "coke spoon" ?

09-02-2005, 11:59 PM

Much, much better /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

newfant

09-03-2005, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the fact that 1/3 of New Orleans police is AWOL is indicative of poor leadership somewhere down the chain and that cannot be blamed on Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a forum full of assinine posts, this is the most assinine statement I have ever read. Do you think that if Bush was Mayor of New Orleans that all the police would have stayed on duty?

Could you imagine going to work at a police station where your main job is to protect the station itself? I can't imagine that and I surprised more police didn't walk off the job.

Once again, the Federal Government has tremendous resources. They have the power and ability to deploy these resources. I don't know why they weren't deployed sooner. It is baffling.

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In a forum full of assinine posts, this is the most assinine statement I have ever read. Do you think that if Bush was Mayor of New Orleans that all the police would have stayed on duty?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is most definitely not the most asinine post in this forum. His point wasn't that Bush would have done a better job, his point was that blame for 1/3 of the police force (hadn't heard this was true, but if it is...) shouldn't be automatically bumped all the way to the top of the federal level. And it's an extremely valid point.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine that and I surprised more police didn't walk off the job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming the 1/3 figure is true, it sure does say something about the hiring practices of the NOPD if 1/3 of the force is willing to abandon their job when they're needed most.

[ QUOTE ]
Once again, the Federal Government has tremendous resources. They have the power and ability to deploy these resources. I don't know why they weren't deployed sooner. It is baffling.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think there was all this relief stuff just sitting in trucks outside of town, waiting to be needed? Maybe you should sit down and think about the logistics of trying to amass the amount of aid needed in such a rapid time frame as you and others are demanding and into a city that's 80+% underwater! Perhaps it's better to wait a day or two so that you have a clearer picture of what you're getting into and what needs to be done than to just burst in and become part of the problem?

OtisTheMarsupial

09-03-2005, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It was plain to me he did not have the mental fortitude or moral character to be meeting the requirements demanded by his job. So in answer to your question, yes, that cop was being a big pussy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cops are not FireFighters are not National Guard are not Supermen...

Just because this guy was tired and angry and missed his wife does not mean he does not have the mental fortitude to do his job. It simply means he needs a break. We're all human and we all break down sometimes when things get rough.

Where the hell is your compassion and humanity?

09-03-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You first called a cop a pussy because you saw him crying on national TV during one of the darkest moments in his country's history, even though you admitted you didn't know anything about his situation.

You then tell a 'parallel' story which shows how you, in a 'similar' situation succeeded where he failed, and somehow I'm the one who is souring the discourse by questioning your motives?

[/ QUOTE ]

devestating.

OtisTheMarsupial

09-03-2005, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You think there was all this relief stuff just sitting in trucks outside of town, waiting to be needed? Maybe you should sit down and think about the logistics of trying to amass the amount of aid needed in such a rapid time frame as you and others are demanding and into a city that's 80+% underwater! Perhaps it's better to wait a day or two so that you have a clearer picture of what you're getting into and what needs to be done than to just burst in and become part of the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason that I am mad is because:

It WAS logistically possible. We know that EVERYONE KNEW about the possibility of this disaster and FEMA had the TIME and MEANS to prepare for it.

However, they DID NOT prepare adequately.
-They knew the levees might break and flood the city
-They knew many people would or could not evacuate
-They knew some people had guns and might use them

AND, funding and troops were diverted to Iraq instead.
-They diverted funds away from levee strengthening
-They diverted troops away from the US
-They sent 22000 National Guard for Hurricane Andrew in 1992
-So far, only 12000 National Guard in New Orleans, 8000 in Mississippi

And, they keep making MISTAKES:
-News teams knew about the Convention Center problem BEFORE FEMA.
-News teams knew the Astrodome wouldn't hold everyone from the Superdome and asked where the rest would go BEFORE FEMA brought the evacuees there. FEMA said there was room. There wasn’t.
-FEMA rescued non-essential personnel from a private, wealthy hospital BEFORE they rescued medically needy people from a poor, public hospital across the street from each other, both with operational helicopter landing zones.
-CNN and then a few days later the Red Cross set up “safe lists” of people so families could connect with one another after being separated during evacuation. FEMA has no similar list.

And because the victims are being DEMONIZED as looters and snipers when only a SELECT FEW are committing crimes and MOST are simply trying to survive

And because the victims are being BLAMED because they didn't get out in time, even though
-many were not able to leave due to lack of money or transportation
-many are children, elderly, or sick and could not leave
-some people make bad choices, particularly in stressful situations

And because Bush reacted slowly by
-waiting until Wednesday before “going back to work” from his vacation and
-waiting until Friday to visit New Orleans and actually get involved

And because Bush got his priorities screwed up by having press conferences about oil and the economy BEFORE expressing true concern and offering true help to Katrina “refugees.”

This disaster calls for compassion and understanding.

But I'm not willing to extend that understanding far enough to absolve Bush of his responsibility for a large portion of this tragedy.

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 03:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
However, they DID NOT prepare adequately.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. FEMA was not prepared for a disaster of this magnitude.

[ QUOTE ]
They knew the levees might break and flood the city

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but did they expect it? I guess not.

[ QUOTE ]
They knew many people would or could not evacuate

[/ QUOTE ]
Are they supposed to drag people from their homes? Those who couldn't evacuate were ordered to the Superdome by the mayor. Smart idea that was! Especially with such a large fleet of school buses laying around...

[ QUOTE ]
They knew some people had guns and might use them

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what this means. Or what could be done about it.

[ QUOTE ]
They diverted funds away from levee strengthening

[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh...From wikipedia:
"However corps officials stated that a decrease in funding was not to blame. The levees themselves were only designed to protect New Orleans from a direct hit by a Category 3 hurricane and that this decision was made by the corps decades ago "based on a cost-benefit analysis" said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers of the corps. Though the levee system as a whole had yet to be completed, those that failed, most notably the 17th Street Canal, had already been completed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina#Evacuation

[ QUOTE ]
News teams knew about the Convention Center problem BEFORE FEMA.

[/ QUOTE ]
Suprise suprise, the private industry is more efficient than the gov't...

[ QUOTE ]
-CNN and then a few days later the Red Cross set up “safe lists” of people so families could connect with one another after being separated during evacuation. FEMA has no similar list.

[/ QUOTE ]
More evidence that perhaps the private sector should be running such relief efforts.

[ QUOTE ]
And because the victims are being DEMONIZED as looters and snipers when only a SELECT FEW are committing crimes and MOST are simply trying to survive

[/ QUOTE ]
What gov't agency's fault is this...? Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the voices against shooting looters on sight.

[ QUOTE ]
And because the victims are being BLAMED because they didn't get out in time, even though
-many were not able to leave due to lack of money or transportation
-many are children, elderly, or sick and could not leave

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll refer you back to the part about the mayor evacuating those who couldn't leave to the Superdome instead of busing them out of the city. More bad decisions by the gov't.

[ QUOTE ]
And because Bush reacted slowly by
-waiting until Wednesday before “going back o work” from his vacation and
-waiting until Friday to visit New Orleans and actually get involved

[/ QUOTE ]
More blaming of Bush...what is it with you people? Can't you set aside your political differences for three seconds? Perhaps you could detail exactly what Bush could have done that wasn't being done AND that would make the situation better. And do this from the perspective Bush would have had at the time, not the hindsight you have now.

[ QUOTE ]
And because Bush got his priorities screwed up by having press conferences about oil and the economy BEFORE expressing true concern and offering true help to Katrina “refugees."

[/ QUOTE ]
We need a press confrence from Bush in order to know that he is concerned about the Katrina refugees? We might like him to tell us what is going being done about the obvious restriction of oil production. A press confrence just to say what amounts to "I feel your pain" does nothing for the refugees. How could it? They don't have any electricity!

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm not willing to extend that understanding far enough to absolve Bush of his responsibility for a large portion of this tragedy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you would have known exactly what to do and when to do it... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

cardcounter0

09-03-2005, 03:25 AM

Could you at least keep your weak excuses straight?

[ QUOTE ]
They knew the levees might break and flood the city

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe, but did they expect it? I guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe? Maybe? UNEXPECTED?

Further down in your post you quote the Corp of Engineers (as some type of justification of "did they do a good job", good unbiased source there) where they state the levies were only built to withstand a Category 3 storm.

SO a Category 5 storm hits, and MAYBE the Category 3 levies won't hold UNEXPECTEDLY?

And meanwhile the day after ... Bush flies to Arizona for McCain's Birthday Party.

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 03:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Further down in your post you quote the Corp of Engineers (as some type of justification of "did they do a good job", good unbiased source there) where they state the levies were only built to withstand a Category 3 storm.

SO a Category 5 storm hits, and MAYBE the Category 3 levies won't hold UNEXPECTEDLY?

[/ QUOTE ]
How am I (or you or anyone else) supposed to KNOW what some people in FEMA think? Are you mindreaders, because I'm not, hence the "maybe". Did the FEMA people in charge "know" the levees couldn't withstand a Cat 5 hurricane? Who knows?! You would at least expect the mayor of the city to know. Perhaps you could explain why instead of ordering buses to evac everyone who couldn't leave on their own, he stuffed them into a massive target which also couldn't fully withstand the hurricane...

judgesmails

09-03-2005, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And meanwhile the day after ... Bush flies to Arizona for McCain's Birthday Party.

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding! He should have flown straight to New Orleans and held up the levees with his bare hands. Better yet, he should have went there the day before the hurricane and told it to go somewhere else. Then we would not have any of these problems.

Plus my neighbor's dog keeps crapping on my porch and Bush does nothing about it. I can't believe he went to a birthday party that day either.

Bush is such a stupid A-hole!

cardcounter0

09-03-2005, 03:38 AM

How could FEMA know? READ YOUR OWN POST!

[ QUOTE ]
The levees themselves were only designed to protect New Orleans from a direct hit by a Category 3 hurricane and that this decision was made by the corps decades ago "based on a cost-benefit analysis" said Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, chief of engineers of the corps.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of "only designed to protect New Orleans from a direct hit by a Category 3 hurricane" didn't FEMA understand?

Or is FEMA not responsible for having knowledge of the infrastucture? Or is it that FEMA can't be expected to watch the weather and realize it was a CAT 5 storm?

cardcounter0

09-03-2005, 03:42 AM

Hmmmm.... I thought Bush was the Leader of the Nation. I thought he was in charge of the Executive Branch, you know administration, planning, etc. I thought he got elected to Protect the Country.

But yeah, your right. If there is an emergency, or a disaster, or something requiring planning and coordination, it is much better if we fly Bush off to France or something until the crisis is over.

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 03:59 AM

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How could FEMA know? READ YOUR OWN POST!

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Is FEMA all-knowing? I realize the information was out there, but perhaps the powers that be at FEMA didn't know that particular bit of info. Is that possible? Gov't not knowing what's going on?

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Or is it that FEMA can't be expected to watch the weather and realize it was a CAT 5 storm?

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FEMA was ordered in a couple days before the storm hit. I've conceded that they were not prepared for what would happen and suggested the possibility that they may not have known the structural capacity of certain levies within NO.
Say they did know. What were they supposed to do on such short notice? Upgrade the levee capacity to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane?

cardcounter0

09-03-2005, 04:14 AM

Congratulations! By ignoring any ability to plan, gather information, formulate responses, or doing any type of rational thought --- YOU HAVE PROVEN YOURSELF PERFECTLY QUALIFIED TO HEAD FEMA!

When the next disaster hits, we can trot you out to wring your hands, and say "What can we do? What can we do? Who could have expected this?"

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 04:22 AM

Okay wise guy, perhaps you can tell me why the mayor of this city did not evacuate everyone out, one way or another? HE must have known that the levees in the city he's supposed to be running would have broken. Why is this all FEMA's fault and not the mayor's? FEMA can at least credibly claim that it didn't know the structural capacity of the levees, but the mayor of the city can't, especially not after ordering a mandatory evac.

cardcounter0

09-03-2005, 04:42 AM

Sorry. You can't keep repeating that lie and make it true.

[ QUOTE ]
FEMA can at least credibly claim that it didn't know the structural capacity of the levees

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhh... No it can't. That is their JOB. That is the type of thing FEMA should know. Must know. Needs to Know. That is the basic foundation of their task. That is what FEMA does.

Then with that knowledge, they are to have plans in place for all types of disaster scenarios. Reliance on the local Mayor to come up with a plan, is not acceptable performance for FEMA.

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 04:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Uhhhh... No it can't. That is their JOB. That is the type of thing FEMA should know. Must know. Needs to Know. That is the basic foundation of their task. That is what FEMA does.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not arguing what FEMA should or should not know, I'm arguing what they DID know. With claims that FEMA didn't even know that there were people in the Superdome, how can you claim that FEMA could credibly know the structural integrity of some levees in New Orleans?

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Then with that knowledge, they are to have plans in place for all types of disaster scenarios. Reliance on the local Mayor to come up with a plan, is not acceptable performance for FEMA.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe it was Mike Tyson who said "Everyone has a plan till they get hit".

So FEMA should always know what to do, without fail? And anyone below them are absolved of responsiblity? Boy wouldn't it be nice if the gov't always knew what to do...But this is the real world. The gov't, probably more often than not, does not know what to do. FEMA was unprepared. I don't know what else there is to say. But FEMA is a response team. Much of these problems could have been avoided if the mayor in charge had instead of sending people to the Superdome sent them out of town.

cardcounter0

09-03-2005, 05:01 AM

You really need to wait until the right wing echo chamber gives you a coherent talking point.

Bush's reorganized FEMA under his created HomeLand Security Department, knows nothing, does nothing, can't be expected to do anything.... So it must all be the MAYOR'S FAULT!

Are you sure Clinton didn't have something to do with it?

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 05:06 AM

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So it must all be the MAYOR'S FAULT!

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I didn't say it's all his fault, but he certainly made it worse by blowing a chance to get thousands out of the city and stuffing them into a stadium that started to fall apart! Imagine what would have happened if the Superdome collapsed!

Myrtle

09-03-2005, 08:14 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
So it must all be the MAYOR'S FAULT!

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I didn't say it's all his fault, but he certainly made it worse by blowing a chance to get thousands out of the city and stuffing them into a stadium that started to fall apart! Imagine what would have happened if the Superdome collapsed!

[/ QUOTE ]

....Imagine what would have happened had the storm tracked another 40 miles to the west?

09-03-2005, 01:24 PM

How about this... I'll go have unprotected sex with a HIV positive female.

Then... when I get AIDS and I'm waiting to die... I'll expect sympathy from everyone that's been warning me for years to use a condom.

Then... my great distrust of the governement (liberal or conservative) that makes this country great will take over and I'll blame "___ insert current president 2010 here___" for my horrible condition.

How does that sound... because in 5 years when I'm dying of AIDS... it would mean a lot if the liberal or conservatives on this post helped me criticize the "___insert 2010 presdient here____"

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 01:31 PM

Prepare to be flamed for copy/pasting the same post in several different threads...

BCPVP

09-03-2005, 01:55 PM

Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

09-03-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually the most responsible and realistic idea I've seen posted.

Obviously the man knows how to get things done in the wake of tragedy.

Unfortunately, liberals will only view this as a "tatic" to boost Guiliani's standing as a possible 2008 presidential candidate.

cadillac1234

09-03-2005, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually the most responsible and realistic idea I've seen posted.

Obviously the man knows how to get things done in the wake of tragedy.

Unfortunately, liberals will only view this as a "tatic" to boost Guiliani's standing as a possible 2008 presidential candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

This 'liberal' wanted Guiliani to run against Bush and Kerry in 2004...

09-03-2005, 10:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually the most responsible and realistic idea I've seen posted.

Obviously the man knows how to get things done in the wake of tragedy.

Unfortunately, liberals will only view this as a "tatic" to boost Guiliani's standing as a possible 2008 presidential candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uneducated statements like this are what happens when "conservatives" ascribe their own characteristics to "liberals". What probably would happen is that "liberals" -- who are Americans, last time I checked -- would welcome the possible improvement in the leadership of this most critical agency.

Myrtle

09-03-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually the most responsible and realistic idea I've seen posted.

Obviously the man knows how to get things done in the wake of tragedy.

Unfortunately, liberals will only view this as a "tatic" to boost Guiliani's standing as a possible 2008 presidential candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uneducated statements like this are what happens when "conservatives" ascribe their own characteristics to "liberals". What probably would happen is that "liberals" -- who are Americans, last time I checked -- would welcome the possible improvement in the leadership of this most critical agency.

[/ QUOTE ]

...for cripes sake, niss, would you please stop trying to introduce some common sense into these strings? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

09-03-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually the most responsible and realistic idea I've seen posted.

Obviously the man knows how to get things done in the wake of tragedy.

Unfortunately, liberals will only view this as a "tatic" to boost Guiliani's standing as a possible 2008 presidential candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uneducated statements like this are what happens when "conservatives" ascribe their own characteristics to "liberals". What probably would happen is that "liberals" -- who are Americans, last time I checked -- would welcome the possible improvement in the leadership of this most critical agency.

[/ QUOTE ]

...for cripes sake, niss, would you please stop trying to introduce some common sense into these strings? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. My bad.

Myrtle

09-03-2005, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watching an interview of Michael Brown on C-SPAN. He looks and sounds quite flustered, understandably. Since the President has already said he's unhappy with the results he might have to start thinking about replacing him. Would it look like too much of a partisan boost if Bush temporarily appointed Guliani as acting FEMA director? Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually the most responsible and realistic idea I've seen posted.

Obviously the man knows how to get things done in the wake of tragedy.

Unfortunately, liberals will only view this as a "tatic" to boost Guiliani's standing as a possible 2008 presidential candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uneducated statements like this are what happens when "conservatives" ascribe their own characteristics to "liberals". What probably would happen is that "liberals" -- who are Americans, last time I checked -- would welcome the possible improvement in the leadership of this most critical agency.

[/ QUOTE ]

...for cripes sake, niss, would you please stop trying to introduce some common sense into these strings? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. My bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

....aw shucks......nevermind!! /images/graemlins/wink.gif