A better line early in an 11?

[qbler]

Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:37:40 ET - 2005/09/02
Seat 1: Button (1,485)
Seat 2: SB (1,470)
Seat 3: Hero (1,500)
Seat 4: UTG (1,665)
Seat 5: UTG+1 (1,500)
Seat 6: MP1 (1,500)
Seat 7: MP2 (1,500)
Seat 8: MP3 (1,500)
Seat 9: CO (1,380)
SB posts the small blind of 15
Hero posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qc Ac]
Syren13 raises to 60
Sakic calls 60
All fold to Hero
Hero calls 30
*** FLOP *** [As 2s 7s]
Hero bets 125
UTG folds
UTG+1 raises to 250
Hero calls 125
*** TURN *** [As 2s 7s] [3s]
Hero bets 200
UTG+1 raises to 400
Hero folds

Basically I feel like I played this poorly on every street, and am looking for a new line to take with strong but not dominant hands oop in pots where someone else has shown (admittedly light) aggression preflop, and on scary flops that are good for me but potentially better for someone else. Thoughts?

[Nicholasp27]

i wouldn't have bet into that flop

not with 3 of one suit that isn't yours

[nyc999]

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldn't have bet into that flop

not with 3 of one suit that isn't yours

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this...you can't assume one of your two opponents have hit a flush. I would have also bet the flop, but after being raised I wouldn't lead the turn. I think you have to fold to a turn bet.

[45suited]

Against certain opponents, I would bet into that flop with any two cards. Players on the 11s are super scared of flushes. Quite often, a 3/4 size bet into that pot will take it down.

With the OP's hand, I like betting the flop against two opponents.

[valejo]

check-fold that turn.

[Nicholasp27]

they are the pf raisers

i would check and see what they do instead of just betting out for them to reraise me

once they reraise, i'm gone

[ QUOTE ]
check-fold that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I like the flop bet though.

[nyc999]

They are pf raisers, but that doesn't mean they have the flush. They also may have had JJ, QQ, KK (and at the 11's KJ, A8s, etc.). You have top pair with second best kicker, I think a flop bet is necessary. Otherwise, why not fold pf?

Well played til the turn. On the turn, you're a dog to a random hand with an ace in it (cool fact, right?). Also, very few players at the 11s are gonna bet with a hand that you're losing to. Fact number 1 means you shouldn't bet. Fact number 2 means you should fold if bet into. If, however, it goes check/check on the turn, I might blocking bet the river.

[revots33]

Flop bet was good. I would check-fold to the turn bet once the 4th spade hit. Debateable part is calling his raise to 250 on the flop. I might just fold there. All I've got is top pair, might be up against a made flush... it's still early and with plenty of chips I might wait for a better spot later on. Even if a 4th spade doesn't hit on the turn, you're in a tough spot if he raises again - you could potentially lose a lot of chips on a top pair hand, not something you want to do early in a tournament.

[Nicholasp27]

i can see why you would bet and don't disagree

i just think i'd not wanna spend 200 chips on this hand on such an early level

if u are gonna call a reraise anyway, would it be better to let them make the c-bet since they were pf raiser and then reraise them? same cost but some chance they'll fold..if they call/reraise u, u can put them on the flush...

if opp doesn't have flush, but has ak:

u bet
he reraises

u check
he bets
u reraise
he folds often figuring u for flush

[pergesu]

Who here likes calling the min-raise on the flop? Just interested.

I lead on the flop but then fold to the raise. Leading the turn seems pretty bad to me. Not sure why you'd really want to get involved in that spot. At least you folded to his turn raise though.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
u check
he bets
u reraise
he folds often figuring u for flush

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless he has the flush...which seems reasonable, even obvious, in this case. And then it cost you (at least) twice as much on the turn.

[Freudian]

I very often fold to these flop raises.

[ QUOTE ]
Who here likes calling the min-raise on the flop? Just interested.

I lead on the flop but then fold to the raise. Leading the turn seems pretty bad to me. Not sure why you'd really want to get involved in that spot. At least you folded to his turn raise though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. A lot of hands make that minraise, and we're a strong favorite against the range. Also, scare cards are obvious.

[Nicholasp27]

i'm saying IF you are willing to call his reraise on the flop (which OP was), then isn't it >ev to check raise to that amount rather than bet/call to that amount?


i would have folded to opp's reraise in an instant if i was OP and had bet out on the flop...but if i'm willing to invest this much into this hand, then i'd rather represent the flush with a craise than with a lead-out bet...if the opp has the flush, then he'll call/raise and i'll fold my way out of the hand...if he doesn't have the flush, he may fold to me...getting me pf pot + his bet, which is more money than the semi-bluff original bet woulda gotten...

[ QUOTE ]
Flop bet was good. I would check-fold to the turn bet once the 4th spade hit. Debateable part is calling his raise to 250 on the flop. I might just fold there. All I've got is top pair, might be up against a made flush... it's still early and with plenty of chips I might wait for a better spot later on. Even if a 4th spade doesn't hit on the turn, you're in a tough spot if he raises again - you could potentially lose a lot of chips on a top pair hand, not something you want to do early in a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that too but I think a min.raise is a call-re-evaluate on the turn. You are not necessarily beat here. He would surely slow play a nut flush or even K-high flush. He could be playing a good draw aggressively, especially if he had something like KK (one a spade).

I don't think folding to his raise is horrible, but i probably call and proceed with caution on the turn. Any bigger flop raise I fold. Wait....unless it's huge, then i may think he's trying to push me off the pot. Man, poker's tricky.

[nyc999]

I see your logic, but you assume the pf raiser will automatically bet. Not always the case, and if he doesn't, what do you do with the fourth spade on the turn? You've learned nothing about the pf raisers hand.

In regards to check/raising with the possibility of the villain holding AK, what if the A or K is a spade...they're not folding. And again, if you are putting villain on AK, fold pre-flop.

[Nicholasp27]

if 4th comes out i check/fold

maybe it's weak, but i don't wanna lose 250+ chips with aq in level 2 with 3-4 of a suit on the board...

in a ring game, fine...but in a tourney, i'll take my edges later on...don't wanna be spewing so many chips if he's got me dominated


for bet/call vs check/raise:

after flop, pot is 195 (3 callers + sb)

so he bet 125 (too much...i think 100 accomplishes same thing)

if flopper folds he wins 195 chips


if he instead craises, then if better goes 125, then he can then raise to 250 and now he paid 250 to win 320

again, only if he's willing to pay 250 to see the turn (which he was here)

[45suited]

Here's my line:

I'm not giving anyone credit for the made flush on the flop. I'm assuming I have the best hand at the moment. I make a much larger bet than the OP did. His bet was small and alot of players will mini-raise a bet such as this.

So, the pot was 195 pre-flop. I bet 175-200 on the flop. Villain will be far less likely to try bluff mini-raising now as it will cost him far more. If he re-raises, I have a decision to make. I don't think pushing to a mini-raise is out of the question either. I'm just not giving him credit for a made flush. Guys love doing this mini-raise crap with a hand that contains one high flush card. It's not like the pot was 6 handed before the flop. He's likely drawing to the flush, IMO.

Obviously, the way the hand was played, I'm folding the turn. But I'm going to bet enough on the flop to make a lone spade think twice about messing around with me. After betting a lot on the flop, if I choose to fold, I can do it with a clear conscience. As I said, it would be based upon my read of the opponent, I might push to a mini-raise on the flop.

[Freudian]

There is a huge difference between a bet and a raise on a board like this. I don't see how you can discount him having the flush. I see flushes trying to build pots with minraises all the time.

[45suited]

It's an 11. Do you ever check HHs and see the crap guys mini-raise with?

I'm really not a big fan of calling the mini-raise. So, say the turn is a non-spade. What's your line? Check / fold? Bet?

We're OOP. Even to a non-spade, our call sets us up to have the pot stolen from us on the turn. To me, the flop is push / fold after villain re-raises. It's amazing the number of times he's doing this mini-raise crap with a lone spade.

[Freudian]

I hate pushing most of my chips in when I may be drawing close to dead. In most cases I take one pretty powerful stab at it. If someone plays back at me I am pretty much done. I prefer folding on the flop instead of calling his raise and then check/folding on the turn if an A or Q don't come.

And I wouldn't discount a flush because this is an 11. Quite the opposite.

[45suited]

I hear what you're saying, but I also think that the OP's decision would have been a lot easier if he'd have made a bigger bet on the flop.

One reason I say this is because I have noticed how spooked I get by these mini-raises, so I have taken to, on rare occassions, bluff mini-raising in spots like this. It really scares the hell out of people and makes them freeze up.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear what you're saying, but I also think that the OP's decision would have been a lot easier if he'd have made a bigger bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still putting in a lot of time adjusting my spidey sense at the lower limits. Sometimes it is way off, but it is getting more and more common that it saves me chips in situations where I previously lost my stack.