Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[OrangeKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller in his book Small Stakes Hold Em, says to raise with the big suited cards. Raise with A-J, A-10, K-Q, K-J, K-10, Q-J, Q-10, J-10 suited. He is very zealous with this advice. However, this is the ONLY hold em book that says to raise with these cards. Bob Ciaffone (MLLHE), Lou Kreiger(Hold Em Excellence), Lee Jones (WLLHE), Bobby Baldwin (supersystem), Jennifer Harmen (Supersystem 2), King Yao (Weighing the odds) and others DO NOT have this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few things:

- JTs, QTs, QJs and KTs really aren't 'big' suited hands. You'll find that SSHE doesn't advocate raising with them very often at all.

- Most of the other books you mentioned aren't designed to help you crush the type of small stakes game that's out there today, whereas SSHE teaches a style that will agressively punish your opponents for playing way too many hands.

- A lot of that advice is positional - you aren't raising with most of those hands from any position, and though I haven't read a lot of the mentioned books, I doubt they'd say to never raise with many of those hands. The differences are probably (somewhat) smaller than you think.

[Niediam]

The first thing you to realized is that SSH is talking about a different style of game that MLH, HEE, SS, SS2, and WTOIH addresses. I only skimmed the 3rd edition of WLLH so I don't know what Jones currently says but he has received quite a bit of criticism around here in the past for not advising his readers to take advantages of small edges...

[amulet]

when i read this i was a little worried about wide spread use of plays like this. i remain somewhat circumspect about this advice for most players. ssh is not for beginners. it is very advanced. most players will take this advice and misuse it.

the book it taking about loose games, multiway pots, and having position. these plays will increase your fluctuations as well as your expectations. it should only be used under the right conditions.

[onegymrat]

Very well stated, amulet. I suspected that myself, after my first reading, that many newer players will misuse Ed's advice. I believe the first line in his book is, "This is not a beginner's book." I don't think you could fully understand and utilize the effectiveness of the advice from SSH until you've had at least a year's experience under your belt AND are playing in the very loose, smaller stakes games.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
ssh is not for beginners. it is very advanced. most players will take this advice and misuse it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that addresses the OP's concern, seeing as how GSIH also says to raise with these hands (with the exception of JTs and QTs, IIRC)

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ssh is not for beginners. it is very advanced. most players will take this advice and misuse it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that addresses the OP's concern, seeing as how GSIH also says to raise with these hands (with the exception of JTs and QTs, IIRC)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I feel strongly about, and I think you guys are being far too apologetic for other books. Bottom line is that the limit hold 'em games that 99% of people on this site play absolutely demand you to raise your suited hands AKs-ATs and KQs-KJs almost any time you get them (if you want to limp ATs and KJs first in up front, that's ok). KTs, QJs, and A9s-A8s should also often be raised.

If you habitually fail to raise these hands, you are making consistent errors. If you recommend in a book not to raise these hands, you are making a bum recommendation. There really isn't much other way to see it.

In my opinion, this is a very clear point for limit hold 'em theory and simply not worth time arguing about.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]


This is something I feel strongly about, and I think you guys are being far too apologetic for other books. Bottom line is that the limit hold 'em games that 99% of people on this site play absolutely demand you to raise your suited hands AKs-ATs and KQs-KJs almost any time you get them (if you want to limp ATs and KJs first in up front, that's ok). KTs, QJs, and A9s-A8s should also often be raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you - I was merely pointing out that the OP's question can't be resolved with "but SSHE isn't a beginner's book" because GSIH is, and it contains the same recommendation.

Although I must confess, I do often feel as if I am throwing money away when I raise LP in a multi-way pot with something like KTs or QJs, because what worse hands do I think will call? Perhaps my game selection is poor, but I've never really seen these mythical "rammin-jammin" games to which TJ Cloutier is fond of referring ("you don't understand, these people can't be reasoned with! K8o under the gun for four bets! Men dressed like women! Dogs and cats, living together!") - lots of times it seems you raise on the button with KTs, hit your king, and then just lose another small bet to the KJ that limped in.

A9-A8s I don't hesitate at all with in LP, though - in the games I've seen, you'll get more than enough action from a dominated ace to merit a raise with them. KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, though, I just don't see it. I would lay dollars to doughnuts that you are correct that they should be raised, I'm simply saying I just don't fully understand why yet.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


This is something I feel strongly about, and I think you guys are being far too apologetic for other books. Bottom line is that the limit hold 'em games that 99% of people on this site play absolutely demand you to raise your suited hands AKs-ATs and KQs-KJs almost any time you get them (if you want to limp ATs and KJs first in up front, that's ok). KTs, QJs, and A9s-A8s should also often be raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you - I was merely pointing out that the OP's question can't be resolved with "but SSHE isn't a beginner's book" because GSIH is, and it contains the same recommendation.

Although I must confess, I do often feel as if I am throwing money away when I raise LP in a multi-way pot with something like KTs or QJs, because what worse hands do I think will call? Perhaps my game selection is poor, but I've never really seen these mythical "rammin-jammin" games to which TJ Cloutier is fond of referring ("you don't understand, these people can't be reasoned with! K8o under the gun for four bets! Men dressed like women! Dogs and cats, living together!") - lots of times it seems you raise on the button with KTs, hit your king, and then just lose another small bet to the KJ that limped in.

A9-A8s I don't hesitate at all with in LP, though - in the games I've seen, you'll get more than enough action from a dominated ace to merit a raise with them. KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, though, I just don't see it. I would lay dollars to doughnuts that you are correct that they should be raised, I'm simply saying I just don't fully understand why yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise because you have a pot equity edge. Where does that edge come from? The fact that KTs wins more multiway pots than 86s or 33 or whatever else people limped in with.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Spurgeon:

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller in his book Small Stakes Hold Em, says to raise with the big suited cards. Raise with A-J, A-10, K-Q, K-J, K-10, Q-J, Q-10, J-10 suited. He is very zealous with this advice. However, this is the ONLY hold em book that says to raise with these cards. Bob Ciaffone (MLLHE), Lou Kreiger(Hold Em Excellence), Lee Jones (WLLHE), Bobby Baldwin (supersystem), Jennifer Harmen (Supersystem 2), King Yao (Weighing the odds) and others DO NOT have this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, aren't you glad that there is a Two Plus Two and you don't have to read any of those other books?

Best wishes,
Mason

[David Sklansky]

"If you habitually fail to raise these hands, you are making consistent errors. If you recommend in a book not to raise these hands, you are making a bum recommendation. There really isn't much other way to see it."

Allright Ed! Finally getting with the program. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

[TXTiger]

Consistently raising with hands like JTs and A8s from ep in the 5/10 online games can't be right. If you are talking about raising several limpers thats different. You will often get 3 bet and isolated oop with by far the worst hand.

Maybe I just disagree because the 5/10 online does not generally play like the games described in Ed's book. The avg vpip on that game is around 26 so you are looking at 3 to the flop.

"(if you want to limp ATs and KJs first in up front, that's ok). "

I guess you are saying it's ok to limp ep with these hands in ep but raise the limpers. I don't even play a hand as weak as A8s in ep unless the table is so tight I think I can win the blinds, in which case I'll be moving soon anyway.

It's hard for me to see the reasoning for usually raising 2 reasonable limpers with JTs or A8s. And if people were raising with these hands after I limped I would be quite happy. 1 limper I can see since you can win the pot if he misses.

One of the biggest flaws I see in the 5/10 game is that people call to many raises with hands like AT and KQ. You will be turning their big weakness into a strength by raising hands like QJs.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
Consistently raising with hands like JTs and A8s from ep in the 5/10 online games can't be right. If you are talking about raising several limpers thats different. You will often get 3 bet and isolated oop with by far the worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't anywhere recommend raising with JTs and A8s from EP. It's hard for me to respond intelligently to your post because you seem to be arguing against advice I never gave.

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Consistently raising with hands like JTs and A8s from ep in the 5/10 online games can't be right. If you are talking about raising several limpers thats different. You will often get 3 bet and isolated oop with by far the worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't anywhere recommend raising with JTs and A8s from EP. It's hard for me to respond intelligently to your post because you seem to be arguing against advice I never gave.

[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO

When will they learn to read the book itself?

[Hallett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Consistently raising with hands like JTs and A8s from ep in the 5/10 online games can't be right. If you are talking about raising several limpers thats different. You will often get 3 bet and isolated oop with by far the worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]



I didn't anywhere recommend raising with JTs and A8s from EP. It's hard for me to respond intelligently to your post because you seem to be arguing against advice I never gave.

[/ QUOTE ]


You managed to say this in a manner much more polite than I would have if I were you......

[amulet]

ed,
i think this is very game specific.
you are saying that 99% of 2+2 'ers play in very loose games. i have no idea if that is true, however it seems very high.
i play in high limit and nl games. if i raised with these hands upfront i would get crushed.
in loose full ring games, the idea of raising with KJs utg seems like a loser. you wrote "KTs, QJs, and A9s-A8s should also often be raised", i think this MUST be based on position and the game. you must agree that position is almost equal to cards in importance. it seems that your post disregards position. as you know early showing a profit in early position is difficult. furthermore, these hands are going to cost you money when it is raised behind you. in games where you can get in cheaply, or have a family pot, i can see value in playing many of these upfront, but again that is specific.
additionally, if you are correct that 99% of 2+2 players play in low limit loose games, i am concerned that therefore, they are still not savvy enough to get away from something like top pair when they are out kicked. The hands you are discussing will be trouble hands for all but the advanced players. Even if you are correct for the advanced player, this type of blanket advice will cause the typical 2+2 player to be out of position with a trouble hand. are you saying that even with this problem, that the large pots won when they make a big hand makes up for their loss? is this really advice for advanced players? or do you think these hands have positive expectations for most loose limit players?
i loved ssh. as i have previously written i sort of consider it a combination of the theory of poker and hold em poker for advanced players. however, ssh is really an advanced book. and that positions, being dominated, and even the super aggressive play you advocate, take a deep understand of the game, and are going to cost the typical player money.

[ QUOTE ]
i think this is very game specific

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i play in high limit and nl games. if i raised with these hands upfront i would get crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the title of Ed's book again?? I think you answered your own question and therefore invalidated your argument.

[TXTiger]

You should be laughing at yourself. I have about 30 books on poker, including Ed's of course. Which I have read 3 times. It's helped my winrate and that's good since I play fulltime. Go away.

[TXTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't anywhere recommend raising with JTs and A8s from EP. It's hard for me to respond intelligently to your post because you seem to be arguing against advice I never gave.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
This is something I feel strongly about, and I think you guys are being far too apologetic for other books. Bottom line is that the limit hold 'em games that 99% of people on this site play absolutely demand you to raise your suited hands AKs-ATs and KQs-KJs almost any time you get them (if you want to limp ATs and KJs first in up front, that's ok). KTs, QJs, and A9s-A8s should also often be raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I said JTs and I should have said QJs. I know you didnt say exactly "raise with these hands in any position." But when you say raise with these hands almost every time you get them and these should also often be raised; my first thought was that you generally shouldn't be raising with them in ep. So I responded.

I think the problem was that my post was rambling. Among my other comments later was this:
[ QUOTE ]
I guess you are saying it's ok to limp with these hands in ep but raise the limpers

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have organized my thoughts better since I know that you don't advocate raising A8s utg. I just responded to the fact that you were vehament about raising then listed several hands that I don't think should be raised in ep.

[amulet]

not at all. i am responding to ed's comments about the value of certain suited hands. i think you need to read clearly or i need to write better.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
not at all. i am responding to ed's comments about the value of certain suited hands. i think you need to read clearly or i need to write better.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice pertains only to LIMIT hold 'em.

Here is my point. AKs-AJs and KQs should be raised in an unraised pot virtually every time. The only reason to limp would be to go for a limp-reraise. This is in $2-$4 or $200-$400.

ATs and KJs should be raised in an unraised pot in MP, LP, or the blinds virtually every time. In EP a case could be made for limping, but raising is usually a good play as well. This is true for $2-$4 or $200-$400.

QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot.

If you strongly disagree with any of these three statements, I really can't come to any other conclusion other than that you are mistaken.

[amulet]

i completely agree with the 1st 2 paragraphs of what you wrote. however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents. in fact i often fold A9s and A8s unless there are a lot of limpers because i will often be dominated. thank you for the reply.

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
i completely agree with the 1st 2 paragraphs of what you wrote. however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents. in fact i often fold A9s and A8s unless there are a lot of limpers because i will often be dominated. thank you for the reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know too many tough opponents that play higher stakes games that do a ton of limping. Your worrying too much about being dominated and not enough on the relative value of your hand. Tough opponents will slaughter you at higher stakes if your raising standards are as narrow as they seem.

In late position with an unraised pot, you have easy raises with all the hands mentioned and more.

[amulet]

of course. however, i thought we were talking about vs several limpers. and most of this discussion was about lower limit multiway pots.

in the larger games, there are usually only 2 or 3 people in a pot, and almost every pot is raised. totally different.

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
of course. however, i thought we were talking about vs several limpers. and most of this discussion was about lower limit multiway pots.

in the larger games, there are usually only 2 or 3 people in a pot, and almost every pot is raised. totally different.

[/ QUOTE ]

"however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents."

This was your response to Ed. Note the part about "An Unraised pot." We are talking about position, unraised pots and equity. All of the hands mentioned should be frequently raised reguardless of stakes. I'd even raise quite a few other hands.

[amulet]

i don't know how to do the box. your post said:
"however, the part "QJs, KTs, A9s-A8s should frequently (but not always) be raised in LP in an unraised pot" i question somewhat. i often would not raise in the bigger games vs tough opponents.

This was your response to Ed. Note the part about "An Unraised pot." We are talking about position, unraised pots and equity. All of the hands mentioned should be frequently raised reguardless of stakes. I'd even raise quite a few other hands. "

------------

i disagree with raising with A9s and A8s vs a limper or two. you are too easily dominated. as for QJs, and KTs, i would limp in late position vs one or two limpers who are good players not raise. however, if there are 3 or 4 limpers then i see real value in raising with QJs, KTs, they will win some big pots and clearly have positive expectation.

all of this is of course game, player, and opponent(s) specific.

However, as i if as i stated earlier to ed, a player must have the ability to hit top pair fair kicker and get away when necessary. QJs and KTs will win enough big pots for those that can get away from them when they are beat. but for the typical player i am not certain. i think it takes a level of advanced understand that many low limit players do not yet posses.

as for your statement "We are talking about position, unraised pots and equity. All of the hands mentioned should be frequently raised regardless of stakes. I'd even raise quite a few other hands." i do not believe you have positive equity with A8s, A9s, maybe even KTs, QJs vs one or two early limpers who play very well, unless you are a strong player who can play aggressively and use your position well. vs only one or two strong opponents limping from earlier position, they probably have stronger hands then you have. again that changes with 3 or 4 limpers and weaker players who limp with weak hands. game dependent.

i believe that if you raise with all these hands in games with strong opponents you will have a negative expectation. you make your straight or flush less then 11% of the time IF you see the river. you flop two pair or about better 1 in 28. these are mediocre hands unless you are in a multiway pot, or unless your opponents are weak. again, they are not raising hands vs a few strong limpers. game dependent.

this reminds me of the AQ if it is raises ahead of you debate, or even the KQ utg debate.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
However, as i if as i stated earlier to ed, a player must have the ability to hit top pair fair kicker and get away when necessary. QJs and KTs will win enough big pots for those that can get away from them when they are beat. but for the typical player i am not certain. i think it takes a level of advanced understand that many low limit players do not yet posses.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is much in your post I disagree with, amulet. But I have time only to respond to this statement. I address this idea in GSIH, and I'll address it again here:

Let's presume that "getting away from top pair when it's beaten" is an important poker skill. Let's further presume that beginning players aren't as good at it as expert ones.

Those two presumptions should lead you to the conclusion that beginners should be MORE inclined to raise with hands like QJs and KTs, not less so.

The ability to fold when beaten is a more important skill in small pots than big ones. By raising, you make the pot big, and therefore you lessen the negative impact of being unable to "get away from a weak top pair."

In general, beginners should raise MORE HANDS, not FEWER HANDS than experts.

[amulet]

interesting. it certainly makes their post flop play often correct. i am not sure i agree but i understand it.

and i loved ssh, thought it was brilliant. and for loose games i agree with all you have said.

[Jaquen H'gar]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's presume that "getting away from top pair when it's beaten" is an important poker skill. Let's further presume that beginning players aren't as good at it as expert ones.

Those two presumptions should lead you to the conclusion that beginners should be MORE inclined to raise with hands like QJs and KTs, not less so.

The ability to fold when beaten is a more important skill in small pots than big ones. By raising, you make the pot big, and therefore you lessen the negative impact of being unable to "get away from a weak top pair."

In general, beginners should raise MORE HANDS, not FEWER HANDS than experts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good insight. I knew there was a reason I loved your book. Keep up the good work (i.e. dispensing your poker wisdom to me!)

[Jaquen H'gar]

[ QUOTE ]
...as for QJs, and KTs, i would limp in late position vs one or two limpers who are good players not raise...
vs only one or two strong opponents limping from earlier position, they probably have stronger hands then you have...


[/ QUOTE ]

What stronger hands are these strong players limping with?

[amulet]

aj, kq just to name a few. in a tough full ring game i toss these in early position, but some people don't.

[hellite]

yeh. I only play AJ on the button. lol.

[amulet]

in a tight tough aggressive full ring game you play AJo utg? if you are playing it in the wrong game out of position, come join my games.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...as for QJs, and KTs, i would limp in late position vs one or two limpers who are good players not raise...
vs only one or two strong opponents limping from earlier position, they probably have stronger hands then you have...


[/ QUOTE ]

What stronger hands are these strong players limping with?

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends o nthe player and in tough games I watch hand choices in EP quite a bit. I end up calssifying players as positionally aware, or unaware, if they are positionally aware then i worry also about EP limping standards. I've run into several playerrs recently who seem to follow the SS2 style of play and you do end up seeing AQs, AQo, AKo, QQ+, along with AJs & o being limped quite a bit from these players.

Is it most players, no, is it worth worrying about, well yes because we are no longer talking about hte same texture of game.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller in his book Small Stakes Hold Em, says to raise with the big suited cards. Raise with A-J, A-10, K-Q, K-J, K-10, Q-J, Q-10, J-10 suited. He is very zealous with this advice. However, this is the ONLY hold em book that says to raise with these cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gary Carson's complete book of holdem will give the same kind of advice in loose games. Jalib and Fekali also give the same advice in their articles.