Boring and standard?

[Ghazban]

Party 1/2 6-max. I limp UTG w/55 and $200 behind, 1 other limp, SB completes, BB (covers) makes it $12 to go and I'm the only caller.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($28)

BB bets $22, I make it $80, he pushes, I call

[emil3000]

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Boring and standard?

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Quite.

[wtfsvi]

Yes. Standard at least. If he has JJ or AKs/AQs/other screwball diamonds, that's just inevitable. Hit some running diamonds to split if he has JJ and you'll be fine.

[jkkkk]

This happened to me the other day with a set of 5's on a monotone board of /images/graemlins/heart.gif's, standard I thought.

[Ghazban]

I don't have a lot of time to go through the math here as I have a meeting in a couple minutes but I'm not sure this SHOULD be standard in this game. I believe waiting for the turn to make a move is a good plan for a few reasons:

If the turn is not a fourth flush card,

-- The made nut flush isn't going anywhere anyway (and probably will still give action if the board pairs and he is drawing dead)
-- An overpair with a big flush card or a pair+nut flush draw is also probably not going anywhere
-- A set is probably not going anywhere


If a 4th flush card comes, you will often be given a free card by the nut flush (as he'll go for a check/raise) or will face a smallish bet from a non-nut flush that fears you have the nuts.


Downsides to waiting:
-- an overpair or TPTK-type hand without a flush card almost certainly will not give you any action (often, they won't give you any action if you raise the flop, either, though)
-- a smaller set will get away cheaply with a fourth flush card on the board when he would likely have put it all in on the flop
-- a decent player will be able to lay down the nut draw with a pair on the turn if you make a large bet

The last doesn't apply to a lot of players in this game so I think it can be discounted.

Thoughts?

[djoyce003]

Obviously the call of his push is standard because once the 80 is in there you are getting odds to fill up.

Personally I probably call the flop and raise a non-diamond turn. People are a lot more brave with 2 to come than they are with 1 to come. I'd also do my best to get the board to pair. Consider offering a small sacrifice...a live chicken feels about right.

[breandan]

I've never played quite as high as nl 200 nor do i have much experience at 6-max but how would he play black aces there? If he has you on any kind of drawing hand will these players or this particular player charge the max?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I really like a flop call, actually. Against bad players, sure I'll raise it up because they will get all-in here with much less. But against good, solid players, I like calling because it disguises your hand and allows you to play more correctly against them on later streets while making them play less correctly against you. Raising the flop against a solid player allows them to play perfectly against you.

[emil3000]

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I really like a flop call, actually. Against bad players, sure I'll raise it up because they will get all-in here with much less. But against good, solid players, I like calling because it disguises your hand and allows you to play more correctly against them on later streets while making them play less correctly against you. Raising the flop against a solid player allows them to play perfectly against you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I could go either way... what i like about raising is that even solid players overplay their overpair with flush card. Overpairs without flushcard shut down on four either way, so you probably won't get anything more out of them, from a solid player at least.

I don't think you can too wrong on this flop tho, other than minraising and folding everything is pretty much ok.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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I really like a flop call, actually. Against bad players, sure I'll raise it up because they will get all-in here with much less. But against good, solid players, I like calling because it disguises your hand and allows you to play more correctly against them on later streets while making them play less correctly against you. Raising the flop against a solid player allows them to play perfectly against you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I could go either way... what i like about raising is that even solid players overplay their overpair with flush card. Overpairs without flushcard shut down on four either way, so you probably won't get anything more out of them, from a solid player at least.

I don't think you can too wrong on this flop tho, other than minraising and folding everything is pretty much ok.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you check/fold black aces on a blank turn? I don't.

[emil3000]

I guess oyu could get one more bet out of them, but unless i have a read on someone as a very loose aggro player, the turn bet is the last money i put in the put, almost certainly.

[TheWorstPlayer]

What if it's A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif and a blank hits the turn?

[emil3000]

Easy check.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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Easy check.

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Call a psb?

[emil3000]

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Easy check.

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Call a psb?

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Yeah. Check /fold the river ui without a read. Maybe call a small bet. I realize this leaves me folding the best hand some of the time, but that's life on a dangerous board oop with one pair. Also I think a lot of legitimate hands that don't beat me check behind on the river, like QQ, with or without /images/graemlins/diamond.gif . The semibluffing hands I fold to, but there aren't so many of those since I hold the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[TheWorstPlayer]

You also lose to an aggro QJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif or whatever. I'm not saying that your lines are bad. I'm just saying that it is easy for red aces to get all in on the flop knowing that they can't be THAT far behind. On the turn it's another story where they have much less equity. And black aces can find an easy laydown on the flop where they will still feel like they might be ahead and need to protect on the turn.

I'm definitely not saying a raise is wrong. It is the safer line. Before a card can come and kill your action or your hand. If you're against a flush, you have outs, and most of the time you won't be. But a flop call and work very nice to balance your draws and to put the pressure on the turn where you have much more equity when ahead.

[emil3000]

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You also lose to an aggro QJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif or whatever. I'm not saying that your lines are bad. I'm just saying that it is easy for red aces to get all in on the flop knowing that they can't be THAT far behind. On the turn it's another story where they have much less equity. And black aces can find an easy laydown on the flop where they will still feel like they might be ahead and need to protect on the turn.

I'm definitely not saying a raise is wrong. It is the safer line. Before a card can come and kill your action or your hand. If you're against a flush, you have outs, and most of the time you won't be. But a flop call and work very nice to balance your draws and to put the pressure on the turn where you have much more equity when ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it seems we're pretty much in agreeance. I call the flop too sometimes, although raise is more standard. I am starting to think I should should do it more often, since this is a flop that I'd often call with any semblance of a draw to take it away later, which would as you say, balance it out. So you've somewhat persuaded me.

Edit: And BTW why the hell don't you play higher? Your reasoning is way too good for 200NL.

[xorbie]

The main problem with waiting until the turn is that if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif falls, you lose all value against black QQ-AA, and you're still probably going to lose a good chunk to JJ. Not getting value out of 22 shouldn't be an issue, he almost never has that.

Waiting until the turn is ok though because if you just call the flop and the turn bricks, QQ-AA with or without a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif will give you a good chunk.

[kurto]

I'm not sure why this is standard?

What percentage of the time do you think most players are going to go all in on a monotone flop without a made flush?

A made flush is going to win 65% of the time vs a set.

I think if there was a raise preflop and you could elminate AKs or such, this becomes a little easier.

Would the villain push on this flop with pocket Aces (one of them a diamond)?

[Ghazban]

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I think if there was a raise preflop and you could elminate AKs or such, this becomes a little easier.

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Huh?

[TheWorstPlayer]

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Edit: And BTW why the hell don't you play higher? Your reasoning is way too good for 200NL.

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There are a lot of reasons why people play lower than the maximum level they could beat. For me, the reason is that I am seriously over-rolled for my games and I don't want to advance faster than my skills dictate so I decided to not put any more offline money into my online poker bankroll. So I only move up when I earn enough to move up. And the same job that makes me well bankrolled requires many hours of work so I don't have much time to play online poker. But the good news is that I will be moving up to the 400s at some point next week or so if all goes according to plan. Thanks for the kind words.

[crosse91]

gl in moving up.....i'm dipping my feet there and aren't comfortable yet.

btw, i am dangerously close to switching to 6-max, i've had enough of 24%vpip tables.

[Ghazban]

That sucks; I'm probably moving up within the next couple weeks, too. I was hoping to not continue to share games with you.

[crosse91]

well at least i won't be playing 6-max up there.........i allready play with enough trout. Last thing i need is you two to take my money.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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I was hoping to not continue to share games with you.

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Funnily enough, I was thinking the same thing about you and wtfsvi. But you have no excuse: you clearly sat at a table already occupied by both me AND wtfsvi the other day. Nice game selection. Fish.

[Ghazban]

Regarding 6-max, you're going to have to switch if you want to continue moving up. There are fewer and fewer full ring games going at the 400/600/1000 levels every time I look. I'm not sure I prefer 6-max to full (still on the fence on that one) but you gotta go where the good games are (and with the limited table selection of full ring, I think that is undoubtably 6-max).

[crosse91]

i know, but i'm nervous about switching my game up (although i don't know how much more effort will be required.) I'll probably try after the current bonuses on stars and party. BTW do you have any good 6-max adjustment threads in your favorites?

[Ghazban]

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I was hoping to not continue to share games with you.

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Funnily enough, I was thinking the same thing about you and wtfsvi. But you have no excuse: you clearly sat at a table already occupied by both me AND wtfsvi the other day. Nice game selection. Fish.

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I have a massive ego and wtfsvi said you REQUESTED my presence. I left up $200 after 80 hands and, if I recall correctly, you ran screaming from the table the moment you finally won a decent pot. Scaredy-fish

[Ghazban]

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i know, but i'm nervous about switching my game up (although i don't know how much more effort will be required.) I'll probably try after the current bonuses on stars and party. BTW do you have any good 6-max adjustment threads in your favorites?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall seeing any that particularly helped me. I also don't have any good advice to give. If you start out playing the same way you do at full ring (as if the first 4 people have folded), you will not be optimal, but you should be profitable. Then gradually get a little looser and a little more aggressive until you find what works. Good luck.

[crosse91]

ty, i'll have someone to help me out when i switch to so i'll be fine. With y'alls move up to 400nl are going to mid-high? Also, what the hell kind of awesome lives do we have where we can all just post at noon?

[TheWorstPlayer]

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I have a massive ego and wtfsvi said you REQUESTED my presence. I left up $200 after 80 hands and, if I recall correctly, you ran screaming from the table the moment you finally won a decent pot. Scaredy-fish

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I requested your presence because I needed a fish at the table to balance out the bad table selection of sitting with the largest luckbox known to man. And since I was getting 3-outed right and left I felt like it was simply a good decision to leave once I got positive before I got on win-tilt and dumped off another 10 buyins to wtfsvi.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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With y'alls move up to 400nl are going to mid-high?


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I am a firm proponent of staying here until NL1K. And if we all keep posting hands here from NL400 and NL600 then we will all be able to provide each other with feedback. I really think the dynamic changes at NL1K - and at least a few MHNL posters seem to agree with that assessment.

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Also, what the hell kind of awesome lives do we have where we can all just post at noon?

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Good ones. And I am currently at the job which causes me to worry about being too well bankrolled, so it is certainly a sweet setup for me. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[yvesaint]

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Edit: And BTW why the hell don't you play higher? Your reasoning is way too good for 200NL.

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There are a lot of reasons why people play lower than the maximum level they could beat. For me, the reason is that I am seriously over-rolled for my games and I don't want to advance faster than my skills dictate so I decided to not put any more offline money into my online poker bankroll. So I only move up when I earn enough to move up. And the same job that makes me well bankrolled requires many hours of work so I don't have much time to play online poker. But the good news is that I will be moving up to the 400s at some point next week or so if all goes according to plan. Thanks for the kind words.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good job man. I'm in the same situation, except I consider 20 buy-ins to be sufficient enough for me to move up, because I also move down a lot. I don't plan on ever putting another dime from my bank account online. I just moved to 400 NL.

Although, I am playing on Prima, where everyone almost everyone is loose-passive ... not as much variance as playing against a table full of maniacs /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[crosse91]

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I am a firm proponent of staying here until NL1K. And if we all keep posting hands here from NL400 and NL600 then we will all be able to provide each other with feedback. I really think the dynamic changes at NL1K - and at least a few MHNL posters seem to agree with that assessment.

[/ QUOTE ]

good, the community here is really good right now with you, ghaz, xorbie, wtfsvi and yvessaint. Sorry if i'm forgetting anyone, but we're all in about the same boat, stakes/gameplay wise. I think i'm behind in both theory and math, but i'm working on it.

on the plus side, i just got my TOP from stars today!

[TheWorstPlayer]

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I'm in the same situation, except I consider 20 buy-ins to be sufficient enough for me to move up

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So do I. My Party roll is currently only 7.5K though. Actually that brings me to an interesting question I've been thinking about. People play at various sites, right? I currently have money on 4 different sites. But I obviously don't have enough on EACH site to play the 200 games. Do people usually just play their 'normal' game even they are underrolled on THAT site and then just switch more money over if they go bust? Or do you play lower on the other site? Or what?

[crosse91]

well my bankroll is liquid, so i just use the total and then that's my roll. I think this is how most do it. If you deposit 600 to get a paradise bonus are you really only going to play the 25nl?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I dont know. I dont bonus whore. Only bonus I have is from depositing 100 to UB and yes, I play NL25 with only 4 buys. Just when I feel like screwing around. (Someone on here outed me, you bastard.) But I really don't know how to efficiently move money around between sites either. Doesn't Neteller charge fees every transaction? I feel like there is a lot of friction...

[jkkkk]

I'm a bit on the conservative side, I won't move up unless I have 25 * buyin in the account I play with for that level. I currently have one account for the 100's and one for the 50's + misc tournaments, its just easier to load up two accounts and play 4 100's and 2 50's or 2 sng's so I don't have to mismatch the tables.

[crosse91]

neteller charges fees ONLY if you get the instacash option, which mean that the money hits neteller right away. However, i'm sure that you cant afford to wait a day (usually less) for your cashout to clear and hit neteller.
Other than that there really aren't any fees if don't mind a short wait.

Also, if you're just screwing around then thats fine, but if were to deposit 500, and then would take the time to try to seriously beat 50nl just b/c thats all your rolled for on that site, you're just wasting opportunity cost. Also, whats the difference between losing a buyin at party vs. stars? Its still money, and the amount of money you have on the site is not really a factor, just your overall bankroll.

Remember- just as EV is cumulative, so is your bankroll, so adjust accordingly.

[Ghazban]

I have money on 3 sites but mostly only play on Party. I used to play on UB at work but things have been to busy lately for that (though I still seem to find time to post a ton from work). Basically, for now I'm using the money on other sites to dabble in other games at fairly low limits. The majority of my playing time is in the 1/2 NL on Party but when I feel like playing something else, I play on other sites (mostly UB; my Stars account hasn't been used in months). When I switched Party skins for rakeback, I took all my money out of Party and just moved it over to Eurobet. I plan to never deposit another dime online, too, though I might move things from site to site as the situation warrants.

[jhall23]

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I'm in the same situation, except I consider 20 buy-ins to be sufficient enough for me to move up

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So do I. My Party roll is currently only 7.5K though. Actually that brings me to an interesting question I've been thinking about. People play at various sites, right? I currently have money on 4 different sites. But I obviously don't have enough on EACH site to play the 200 games. Do people usually just play their 'normal' game even they are underrolled on THAT site and then just switch more money over if they go bust? Or do you play lower on the other site? Or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play at the same level with my bankroll spread around different sites depending on recent bonuses etc. I just try and have at least 5 buy-ins on each site at a min to cover the swings. If for some reason I only have 5 buy-ins I opt to only play 2 tables max so I can reload easily.

I pretty much move between 3 party skins and Stars depending on the bonuses, then after I clear the bonus I take all but 100 bucks out just to keep some money in there and move most of it to a rakeback site. I don't know if it really matters but I feel leaving the 100 bucks on Party/Empire (where I don't have rakeback) may keep them happy and I won't get booted for whoring.

I'm pretty much only on Stars/Party/Empire/Euro currently, but I plan on getting a new UB account with Rakeback and I just got a BetOnBet account with Rakeback but have yet loaded it. I was going to load into BetOnBet but then just got a Party bonus and Stars bonus this week so I am going to wait. It might get kinda tricky with more sites added but I don't think I'd ever need to have money on more then 4 sites at once which would allow me to have at least 5 buy-ins on each site I wanted to play at. So many sites!!

[ScottTheFish]

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But I really don't know how to efficiently move money around between sites either. Doesn't Neteller charge fees every transaction? I feel like there is a lot of friction...

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They do, but the site pays the fee, not you. You can move money out of your Party account into Neteller and then onto another site no problem. I do it all the time.