AKo multiway

[The Truth]

main villian is fairly average a little loose about standard agression.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

[James282]

If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Against average opponents I don't think we are even good 50% here. There was a preflop 3bet and an ace on the board. I don't like raising here. (but I'd do so if the river was a /images/graemlins/club.gif)

[The Truth]

Now that I look at this hand again, not real sure why I posted it.

Seemed different at the time.

Thanks for checking it out anyway

truth

[TStoneMBD]

i agree with truth that this hand isnt interesting. seems like a standard call. did you miss the river flush james? im interested to hear your thoughts if you really do think that raising this river is good play.

[James282]

Intriguing, not necessarily good. I'd almost always just call unless I knew the opponent, just tyring to make this hand seem more interesting /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
Intriguing, not necessarily good. I'd almost always just call unless I knew the opponent, just tyring to make this hand seem more interesting /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I could tell you were just looking for something and giving options, thats when i realized the hand was stupid /images/graemlins/wink.gif

truth

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you can't do anything but call here.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]i think youre barely getting pot odds to call.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]i think youre barely getting pot odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're crazy. Plenty of people will play a baddish ace this way, considering the flush card is the perfect card to bet and not get raised.
-James

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]i think youre barely getting pot odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're crazy. Plenty of people will play a baddish ace this way, considering the flush card is the perfect card to bet and not get raised.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

shhhh

[ike]

I'm gonna go against the consensus and say I like james' raise suggestion. This looks much more like AJ/AT than it does like a flush. Against a "fairly average" opponent my read here would be that the range of hands he can have here that beat us is very small (since even if he's a little loose he's not playing that many non-ace, non-king suited hands UTG), the range of hands he gets to the river with is fairly large, he bets alot of them alot of the time, and he pays off the raise with any ace and maybe less while never 3betting a worse hand. Furthermore, I would expect a flush draw to put a bet in somewhere before the river much of the time and also to frequently checkraise when it hits after check/calling the flop and turn. Its probably thin, but I think a raise (fold to a 3bet) is good.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]i think youre barely getting pot odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ] was exaggerating.You're crazy. Plenty of people will play a baddish ace this way, considering the flush card is the perfect card to bet and not get raised.
-James

[/ QUOTE ] id never ever fold here, but i dont see the point of raising...
youre gonna look pretty silly at the table when the guy insta threebets, and you... fold.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]i think youre barely getting pot odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ] was exaggerating.You're crazy. Plenty of people will play a baddish ace this way, considering the flush card is the perfect card to bet and not get raised.
-James

[/ QUOTE ] id never ever fold here, but i dont see the point of raising...
youre gonna look pretty silly at the table when the guy insta threebets, and you... fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to ask the people who have played a significant number of hands with me and ask them to rate how silly I appear at a poker table on a scale of 1-10.

That said, I think fold is the worst option, calling being best and raising being 2nd best. Players of average aggression will fear that you'll check behind TT-KK here and bet worse aces - granted you need a pretty specific read to make a play like this.

The raise the river line is much more appropriate in hands that are HU, when it is much less likely for our opponent to have a flush than in large pots where someone passively calls along the whole time and all of a sudden bets out a flush card. I'm mostly raising awareness for this sort of line as an appropriate one in certain circumstances.
-James

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If our villain is of standard aggression, this is an intriguing spot to raise and fold to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]i think youre barely getting pot odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ] was exaggerating.You're crazy. Plenty of people will play a baddish ace this way, considering the flush card is the perfect card to bet and not get raised.
-James

[/ QUOTE ] id never ever fold here, but i dont see the point of raising...
youre gonna look pretty silly at the table when the guy insta threebets, and you... fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to ask the people who have played a significant number of hands with me and ask them to rate how silly I appear at a poker table on a scale of 1-10.

That said, I think fold is the worst option, calling being best and raising being 2nd best. Players of average aggression will fear that you'll check behind TT-KK here and bet worse aces - granted you need a pretty specific read to make a play like this.

The raise the river line is much more appropriate in hands that are HU, when it is much less likely for our opponent to have a flush than in large pots where someone passively calls along the whole time and all of a sudden bets out a flush card. I'm mostly raising awareness for this sort of line as an appropriate one in certain circumstances.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]jamesjamesjames. that was a v good post, and i agree with all of it... but its all kind of goes without saying. dont take me so literally...
i was just being a little sarcastic earlier, bc i think this guy absolutely must give you credit for a hand here (unless he is psycho himself). you bet into 200 ppl on flop... you couldve got free card/cheap showdown on turn, you declined.

[James282]

Well let's say hero had TT-KK, would you advocate checking through on the turn? Because I think a bet is much better. I also think that betting the flop is the best play also. Not trying to be abrasive, just asking - because if good players are betting TT-KK on the flop multiway and on the turn HU, and it is my position that they should in huge pots like this, then a river bet out by Ax on a flush card looks like a good play.
-James

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Well let's say hero had TT-KK, would you advocate checking through on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes.
[ QUOTE ]
Because I think a bet is much better.

[/ QUOTE ]why?

[James282]

Because hands like a flush draw, a gut-shot or open ended straight draw, pair with a backdoor draw etc, when taken collectively, are more likely than a suited smaller ace, a set, etc. I bet because due to pot size, I would love him to fold a hand like a gutshot or a non-ace pair, etc. Checking behind the turn in a huge pot like this when you have virtually no outs when behind but need to call a river bet is pretty much disastrous IMO.
-James

[flawless_victory]

i dont think most playery in the 20 on party will ever fold those hands here. ever. however, they will CR with these hands... often. if you get checkraised, are you calling?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think most playery in the 20 on party will ever fold those hands here. ever. however, they will CR with these hands... often. if you get checkraised, are you calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

You contradict yourself. You don't think they'd bet out a worse ace on the river, but they'd wait til the turn to check-raise a draw "after we've shown so much strength"? Nah, something doesn't add up. If check-raised, I'm folding a middle pair most of the time, sometimes calling and folding if a draw gets there, sometimes calling down, but against the villain described, I'm always folding.

You have no clue what people are folding on the turn and what they are not. Just because you see people showing down hands like this from time to time doesn't mean there aren't dozens of other people who are folding on the turn. If you are worried about getting outplayed, then that is a personal problem between you and whichever player you are against. Anyways, it seems like you are arguing for the sake of arguing - if you truly are checking behind strong hands on such draw heavy boards you have a pretty big leak in my opinion. You seem to not be finding the balance between:

Size of the pot --- % of time we are giving a free card to someone who will call --- % of time we are giving a free card to someone who will fold(catastrophic) --- % of time we are behind and need a free card --- % of time we will improve to the best hand on the river when behind --- % of time we will be blown off the best hand(catastrophic, but relatively small IMO) --- % of time someone will fold the best hand(very small, but certain possible - people have folded top pair bad kicker before, like me!).

I don't have the time nor the desire to speculate as to how these percentages balance out, but on a board like this where there are dozens of possible holdings that have 2 pair/oesd/gutshot/flush draws, you won't see me checking behind TT-KK very often.
-James

[rigoletto]

@Flawless

[ QUOTE ]
youre gonna look pretty silly at the table when the guy insta threebets, and you... fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the more silly I can look at a pokertable the better!

[rigoletto]

I agree with James on everything except the order of actions: I think raising is better than calling.

[PokerBob]

seems like a standard call and cuss to me.

[imashyboi]

This is a pretty standard call. Anyone who folds here should get spanked! The pot is over 11BB, I'm calling on the river as long as there is no raise. No point of raising here either unless your planning on calling it. If you are thinking of raising you need to call the river and see it.

[The Truth]

This time he had the flush, congratulations.

thanks for the responses
truth