When to limp?

[Jimbio]

I recently read a reply to this great thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3293414&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1

#5. Stop limping in NL.

Apparently, this is advice from Barry Greenstein.

So when do you limp? Table conditions? position? From SB?

Me myself do a lot of limping, especially with small pocket pairs from any position. Suited connectors also got me limping in position.
Is this a leak? Should i be raising with these kind of hands from position to gain initiative and take down more pots when i do a continuation bet?

I just feel like when i do get called on the flop when i have an underpair or a missed SC, i want to have a few more outs than 2. - trips with a pp - or runner 2-pair or trips with SC.
I realize that since i will do a lot of raising and betting, when i do hit a set, i'm likely to get paid off from someone who's running me down due to my aggressive table image.

Will the money won by taking down pots with initiative and aggression, combined with the money i make when i hit a hand outweigh the money lost when people are calling me down with paired hands?
I do realize that position is of the essence.
How about early position? Should i continue to limp with small pp:s? or do they belong in the muck? SC?

So to go back to my previous question... when do you limp?

[cwsiggy]

The context of what he was talking about there was a table at Live at the Bike that was full of players playing bad values and doing a ton of limping. He was commenting on how if you're going to play a hand, bring it in for a raise.

This also ties in to the other advice he gave about how, in general, he usually raises the same amount whether or not he has AA or suited connectors. This makes him harder to read.
Many probably feel they have to limp with a speculative hand cause they want to "see what happens with the flop" but his point is, if you hit something, you're setting yourself up to take a huge pot, otherwise you've just lost a little raise. Something along those lines. I'm sure limping has it's place, but in general he plays aggressive NL poker.
He's also one of the best poker players in the world who can adjust to any situation and player.

[Jimbio]

To give this thread a bump, i might clarify that what i speak of is open limping in late position.

Comments are welcome concerning open limping in EP and MP also.

[subzero]

I generally limp from the CO and button with small pairs and SCs. I sometimes raise in that spot if it's folded to me (to steal blinds, disguise my hand, steal the pot with a continuation bet on the flop, mix it up etc.) From the SB, it's an automatic limp if there are a bunch of limpers.

[PaultheS]

If it's folded to you in the CO or on the button, you really have to raise if you're going to play.

[subzero]

Good point. Thanks for the correction.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
If it's folded to you in the CO or on the button, you really have to raise if you're going to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe this is categorically true in NL.

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it's folded to you in the CO or on the button, you really have to raise if you're going to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe this is categorically true in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me neither.

[wdeadwyler]

In TOP i think Sklansky makes a point about experts limping more hands in passive games in order to outplay their opponents on the flop. Nothing is wrong with limping. If im dealt 22 in the CO in a limped pot Im not gonna raise it up (75% of the time I'll limp too). If its just me and the blinds Im not necessarily gonna raise it either, it all depends on how loose the blinds are. If the blinds are gonna come in with any two, it might not be worth it to attack them from the CO/Button every time you play.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it's folded to you in the CO or on the button, you really have to raise if you're going to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe this is categorically true in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you referring to implied odds (play/stack sizes of the blinds), mixing up your play, or both?

[Ghazban]

More than anything, it depends on the type of players in the blinds. As an extreme example, say the players in the blinds will call any raise with any two cards because they love to protect their blinds. Say they also play very badly postflop. In this instance, openlimping a hand like 54s would be greatly preferable to raising it as you're almost certainly behind at the moment but you definitely want to see a flop with the hand and you will be able to outplay the over-defending blind guys postflop.

Granted, that's an extreme example but it should illustrate some of the potential benefits of openlimping in LP.

In the Party 1/2 6-max games where I spend most of my time, I generally don't openlimp from the CO or button but that's primarily because I get the blinds preflop or take it down on the flop a very large percentage of the time.

[subzero]

Thanks. I hope your switch to 6-max is going well.

[PaultheS]

Fair enough. I guess it's hard to make any rule like that in NL hold 'em, as there are always exceptions with specific reads...

However, at the Party $100NL 6-max, I can't remember the last time I limped from the CO/button.

[cwsiggy]

Another point Barry made was that in NL, the blinds are not worth stealing. Hands like k10, j10 that you would normally raise to steal the blinds, he wouldn't even play. Though if it completely folded to him in CO, I'm not sure.

[xorbie]

Here's the deal. If a bad, predictable, player you have position on will play a big pot with you with his J5o when the flop comes J78 and you have 9Ts, feel free to limp in. Hell, feel free to limp in with AA. There have been 6-max games where I open limped like 40% of my hands on the button/CO and never raised just because the BB was so bad that I wanted to play as many pots as I could with him. Having blinds fold has an EV of 1.5 BB, limping and folding after the flop has an EV of -1BB, so you really just have to take 2.5 BB off him once in a while to make limping ok, and it's pretty easy because people will fold to your flop bets anyway most of the time (i.e. if they have no pair no draw).

[crosse91]

why are you not limping any small pair in ANY position?

[subzero]

I never said I didn't. I was responding to Jimbio's post:
[ QUOTE ]
To give this thread a bump, i might clarify that what i speak of is open limping in late position...

[/ QUOTE ]

[crosse91]

ohh, ok just checking. and for the record, i limp with all kinds of marginal hands when the tables right.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
ohh, ok just checking. and for the record, i limp with all kinds of marginal hands when the tables right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Worse than suited 1-gaps or A-x suited? I'll limp with worse on the button because of position and weak blind players.

[crosse91]

i'll limp with these in mp and even MAYBE ep if the table is a thing of beauty.