I KNOW I'm getting checkraised...

[pudley4]

Party 5/10 6max. I'm 99.9% sure villian is a very good but infrequent poster. I'm sure he knows I know, since I sent him a message asking if he was so-and-so from 2+2. I don't know how much shorthanded he plays online and I've never seen him post in HUSH.

I don't think we had played a hand against each other yet, although he'd been at the table for at least 1/2 hr.

Folded to me on the button, I raise with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Folded to villain in BB who 3-bets, I cap.

Flop (4 BB): 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He bets, I call

Turn (5 BB): 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

He checks...

I know I'm getting checkraised if I bet. So what's my line?

[witeknite]

Do you think he will c/r w/overs? That's the big question.

WiteKnite

[tongni]

100% read dependant. If he can bluff here at approximately the correct frequency, then check. If he bluffs too much, bet call, etc. Anyways, if you are sure he is going to checkraise, I would probably check behind.

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 5/10 6max. I'm 99.9% sure villian is a very good but infrequent poster. I'm sure he knows I know, since I sent him a message asking if he was so-and-so from 2+2. I don't know how much shorthanded he plays online and I've never seen him post in HUSH.

I don't think we had played a hand against each other yet, although he'd been at the table for at least 1/2 hr.

Folded to me on the button, I raise with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Folded to villain in BB who 3-bets, I cap.

Flop (4 BB): 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

He bets, I call

Turn (5 BB): 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

He checks...

I know I'm getting checkraised if I bet. So what's my line?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is his range? Why didn't you raise the flop? It definately seems like he's going to get tricky on the turn after betting into a capped PF pot. If you're ahead of a PP, he only has two outs, the only hand you're probably worried about giving a freecard to is something like AKs or AQs.

Given your read I'd probably have checked the turn. If he doesn't check-raise you, you're probably way ahead and he'll fold the turn or river, and if he does CR you, you're either way behind or ahead of maybe what might be as high as an 18 out hand (A/images/graemlins/spade.gif x/images/graemlins/spade.gif). In the first case, you don't mind him trying to steal or wrongly valuebet the river, in the second, you're not that far ahead of him anyways (on average).

The question if you take this line is whether or not to fold an ace or spade on the river.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
100% read dependant. If he can bluff here at approximately the correct frequency, then check.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is entirely dependant on what his average holding is on the turn.

would you check behind AA here just because he bluffs at the correct frequency?

[C-Dog]

Aren't you ahead most of the time, whether he checkraises or not? I would bet it. And then call down the CR and curse at PP after I get shown a bigger pair...

C-Dog

[witeknite]

AA doesn't have to worry as much about a bet being a better hand in addition to it being a bluff. It will most likely be a worse hand, or a bluff. Right?

WiteKnite

[pudley4]

So I bet. He checkraised. I called.

River (9 BB): A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Yuck.

If he bets do you raise/call/fold?

If he checks, do you check, bet-call, or bet-fold?

[Wes ManTooth]

I dont like raising this river card regardless if he checks to you. If you are right and he is a decent 2+2 player, he should know that you would not call the c/r on the turn with Ax.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
So I bet. He checkraised. I called.

River (9 BB): A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Yuck.

If he bets do you raise/call/fold?

If he checks, do you check, bet-call, or bet-fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have checked the turn if you knew he would cr. I'd fold the river unless he'll fold to a raise. He has an overpair but not likely an ace.

Krishan

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
He has an overpair but not likely an ace.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]
Are we throwing out 55-88 because risking the free card on the turn would be bad with those holdings, but less so with 99-KK?

I don't get how you can put him on an overpair specifically.

[Mig]

3 bet the turn and free showdown. If you 3 bet the turn you will most likely make him fold AK/AQ etc. I would probably check/raise you here too with that type of holding on that type of board. 3 betting put a lot of pressure on him. If he calls, you check behind... (I think) If he donks the river you have an easy fold imo.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He has an overpair but not likely an ace.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]
Are we throwing out 55-88 because risking the free card on the turn would be bad with those holdings, but less so with 99-KK?

I don't get how you can put him on an overpair specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorta, yeah. It's also because I only have ever seen this line with a strong hand. Overpair or set.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the turn and free showdown. If you 3 bet the turn you will most likely make him fold AK/AQ etc. I would probably check/raise you here too with that type of holding on that type of board. 3 betting put a lot of pressure on him. If he calls, you check behind... (I think) If he donks the river you have an easy fold imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind this from a theoretical perspective. In practice I think you are hammered here and it's just a waste of a bet.

Krishan

[thejameser]

i would check/call but i suck. i hate giving a free draw, but if its coming you save the BB anyway. plus you may get a bet out of AK/AQ you may not have before. this is before you know the Ace comes on the river however. i would still call, though. a good blind defender, especially at 6max would have a wide 3 bet range right? could he have KQs, KJs, or a lower pp pair. if he checks do i check behind again? with no A on the river i may value bet. with the A i check behind. but i do suck.

[Danenania]

I bet and call down a checkraise. Whatever he has he's played it very strangely (and badly) so I want to see it. No river card will make me fold.

Also I think you seriously overestimate how often he checkraises based on the results. Him checking this turn with any kind of made hand is awful--he should know you always check behind A-high with your straight outs. So if he's truly a good player I expect this to be either a weird get-to-showdown plan or a multitabling error or even something completely random at least as often as a checkraise attempt. Even more likely still is that he's simply not a very good player.

[Mig]

It's headsup, blind war. I find player raising turn very light. 88 is a monster hand on this board when it's a blind war... You are going to put 3 bet in no matter what, so why not on the turn when you have the best of it ?

[Danenania]

I don't like 3-betting turn. His play makes me think he could very well be kooky so I want a line that sees a showdown for sure.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like raising this river card regardless if he checks to you. If you are right and he is a decent 2+2 player, he should know that you would not call the c/r on the turn with Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll absolutely call the c/r with my overcard + gutshot (which is what I think he put me on). Look at it from his point of view - I capped preflop headsup, which is very plausible for an A; I then flat-called the flop, which I'd do with an Ax here; I then bet the turn when he checked, because I might have the best hand with A-high, plus I gained more outs with the gutshot so calling a c/r isn't devastating.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]

Also I think you seriously overestimate how often he checkraises based on the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

As soon as he checked the turn, I thought I'm getting checkraised here. Would he lead the flop with overcards after I capped preflop? No, he lead out because he has a pair and now he wants to c/r me

Whether that thought process is usually right or not, I don't know; but that's the exact thought I had when I played the hand.

[Danenania]

It's an understandable thought to have, it's just that no good player is checking this turn with a pair unless it's a misclick or he is seriously out to lunch. This to me decreases the odds that he's really a good player by a lot and correspondingly ups his potential hands to the point that I'm NOT giving a free card with 88 on such a dangerous board.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the turn and free showdown. If you 3 bet the turn you will most likely make him fold AK/AQ etc. I

[/ QUOTE ]
if yuu 3 bet he is getting 10/1 on the turn to call,no way is an ace high folding here

[DMBFan23]

Jeff thinks he should be betting A high on the turn because he might have the best hand, you think he should be checking it with outs. but, you'll have pairs here a lot too. so...

[ QUOTE ]
This to me decreases the odds that he's really a good player by a lot and correspondingly ups his potential hands to the point that I'm NOT giving a free card with 88 on such a dangerous board.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe villain has AA and figures he's on a freeroll if you check behind Ax and you might call it on the river, with the nice benefit that he gets to c/r you if you have any pair and get called down. also you might bet your A high and then you call with the overcard and gutshot.

he knows you're not going to raise him on the turn except with maybe KK after the way the action has gone down so far, so he makes an extra bet versus betting. especially if he has the As, I really think check raising the turn with AA is a decent play here, especially if you can parlay that into some free cards OOP later.

[Danenania]

It's possible I suppose but A.) I would expect AA to usually c/r the flop. Leading isn't bad but c/ring is much more common. So I think the lead shows some weakness. B.) Checking still isn't a good play. Considering OP's claim of 99% certainty of a looming c/r, it seems like a pretty transparent attempt. And we've seen in this thread that even many 2+2ers are considering checking behind with a PP. It simply gives up too much value against hands that would call a bet but check behind when checked to. C.) AA is not really "freerolling" against Ax. Freerolling means you are tied and only you have outs to win. In this case AA is beating Ax and the Ax has 4 outs to take away half the pot. There's a big difference.

[DMBFan23]

I dunno, it seems like the fact that the lead shows weakness sets up the turn c/r pretty well, since even though Jeff 'knew' the c/r was coming, he couldn't really read the hand well enough to not bet and ppl hate giving any free cards

and yeah, you're definitely right about the 'freeroll'. how I should have phrased it was "not worried about giving a free card especially if he'll bet it on the turn some portion of the time anyway, will call on the river sometime, and we'd love for him to spike an A or his kicker."

[Mig]

If he has AA and he thinks the other guy has a pair or A high, on such a board he doesn't have to check the turn to have the other guy call a river bet. Most players will call down with A high and any pocket. You don't have to give free card...

[DMBFan23]

yeah but if they'll always bet a pocket pair, I make an extra bet by checkraising. AA should not be worried about free cards costing them the pot, no one has more than 4 outs and those will be to a chop.

too much of a 'no free card' mindset lately IMO. in many cases you get that money back in other spots and you don't deal with as many "OMG he raised me on the turn because I wanted to not give a free card what do I do now" situations. of course you have to balance everything so I'm not saying always give free cards. it's all about balancing that concept with getting your ass to showdown, inducing bluffs, letting peole catch up to a second best, going for a checkraise, etc.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

too much of a 'no free card' mindset lately IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree; there seems to be a lot of near mindless betting with A high on the turn in multiway pots.

[pudley4]

He checked the river. I figure his hand range now is about 66-KK so I check behind and luck out when he shows me 77.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I felt lost this whole hand.