What's your turn play? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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woodguy

09-01-2005, 07:30 PM

Hello All,

$100 Party MTT

I don't always bet the flop, but here I did.

What is your turn play?

As always, please give a rationale for your move and what you put the BB on.

Just saying "I push" etc.without stating your reasons is of no value.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t1055)
UTG+1 (t1045)
UTG+2 (t985)
MP1 (t975)
MP2 (t955)
MP3 (t830)
Hero (t1030)
Button (t1230)
SB (t985)
BB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t75, 2 folds, BB calls t60, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls t60.

Flop: (t250) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t200, BB calls t200, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t650) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks,

Hero ???.

Regards,
Woodguy

woodguy

09-01-2005, 08:05 PM

meh

locutus2002

09-01-2005, 08:06 PM

Hero bets T300 (1/2 of villains remaining chips).

If hero is behind he will lose all his chips so don't worry about it. Hero cannot fold TPTK this early.

If hero is ahead then villain has ~9 outs with a hand like 9T and needs 6:1 to call, but is only getting 4:1 implied odds.

If villain has 2 hearts that's just bad luck that he has so many outs.

If this were a smaller entry fee I would suggest a push this early because you are likely to get called by any drawing hand.

09-01-2005, 08:15 PM

hmm, so BB has about 635 chips left I think.. I'm gonna try and get all his chips in play on the turn and on the river.. Check/Call and then Check on the turn is looking like he's on some type of draw.. a bet of 300-350 seems about right to deny him odds yet also entice him to chase

kuro

09-01-2005, 08:42 PM

I usually check behind on the turn and then call the river or value bet if checked to. Coordinated boards are tough because you can go broke so easily with just TPTk and you have a really hard time extracting value from hands weaker than yours because of how scarry the board is. So by checking behind and value betting/calling the river I'm hoping to get some value from hands that I'm ahead of without going broke to those I'm behind.

woodguy

09-01-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually check behind on the turn and then call the river or value bet if checked to. Coordinated boards are tough because you can go broke so easily with just TPTk and you have a really hard time extracting value from hands weaker than yours because of how scarry the board is. So by checking behind and value betting/calling the river I'm hoping to get some value from hands that I'm ahead of without going broke to those I'm behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

All betting does is fold hand you are ahead of.

He called the flop with something, and its probably not 2 hearts.

Regards,
Woodguy

09-01-2005, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually check behind on the turn and then call the river or value bet if checked to. Coordinated boards are tough because you can go broke so easily with just TPTk and you have a really hard time extracting value from hands weaker than yours because of how scarry the board is. So by checking behind and value betting/calling the river I'm hoping to get some value from hands that I'm ahead of without going broke to those I'm behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

All betting does is fold hand you are ahead of.

He called the flop with something, and its probably not 2 hearts.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't you not mind taking the pot down right now and not giving your opponent a free card on the river to beat you if he had something like 10J?

Jurollo

09-01-2005, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually check behind on the turn and then call the river or value bet if checked to. Coordinated boards are tough because you can go broke so easily with just TPTk and you have a really hard time extracting value from hands weaker than yours because of how scarry the board is. So by checking behind and value betting/calling the river I'm hoping to get some value from hands that I'm ahead of without going broke to those I'm behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

All betting does is fold hand you are ahead of.

He called the flop with something, and its probably not 2 hearts.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't you not mind taking the pot down right now and not giving your opponent a free card on the river to beat you if he had something like 10J?

[/ QUOTE ]

What would he make with JT on the river a 6 card super straight. The hearts is what you have to worry about, I would fire another T200 on flop because I fear the draws that are out there, you are calling a push from him but otherwise he will likely stay for T200 more with a lot of worse hands here and try to catch up.
~Justin

durron597

09-01-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't you not mind taking the pot down right now and not giving your opponent a free card on the river to beat you if he had something like 10J?

[/ QUOTE ]

TJ already beats hero.

I actually don't see what hand he could have that isn't already beating you or has less than 5 outs against you. Checking behind and calling a river bet isn't bad here. You could also bet 200 again and hope he sees it as a bluff and call a check-raise.

09-02-2005, 12:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't you not mind taking the pot down right now and not giving your opponent a free card on the river to beat you if he had something like 10J?

[/ QUOTE ]

TJ already beats hero.

I actually don't see what hand he could have that isn't already beating you or has less than 5 outs against you. Checking behind and calling a river bet isn't bad here. You could also bet 200 again and hope he sees it as a bluff and call a check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops, misread the board.

bruce

09-02-2005, 12:26 AM

I would bet about 3/4 of the pot on the turn. If the board
were uncoordinated I might check and induce a bluff on the river, but with a highly coordinated board I would definetely bet the turn. You have the villain covered so
if he has an Ace he may even checkraise allin with a worse
kicker. I just hate giving a free card on the turn and on
the river there's a four card straight and I checked the pot
away. This is not the type of board I want to get cute with. If I'm beat on the turn, well, so be it, but I won't allow myself to get beat by letting them get there.

Bruce

woodguy

09-02-2005, 09:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I just hate giving a free card on the turn and on
the river there's a four card straight and I checked the pot
away. This is not the type of board I want to get cute with. If I'm beat on the turn, well, so be it, but I won't allow myself to get beat by letting them get there

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

Regards,
Woodguy

Dave D

09-02-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero bets T300 (1/2 of villains remaining chips).

If hero is behind he will lose all his chips so don't worry about it. Hero cannot fold TPTK this early.

If hero is ahead then villain has ~9 outs with a hand like 9T and needs 6:1 to call, but is only getting 4:1 implied odds.

If villain has 2 hearts that's just bad luck that he has so many outs.

If this were a smaller entry fee I would suggest a push this early because you are likely to get called by any drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'm definatly playing this like I have the best hand.

I don't think you can assume he flopped a straight. If he did oh well, but you can't be afraid of monsters under the closet. His play seems like a draw to me, as AQ probably would have raised PF or definatly on the flop. In that case, I don't even think a push is that bad on the turn here. If he flopped the nuts so be it, but otherwise I think you're ahead of any other feasable holding.

pooh74

09-02-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hello All,

$100 Party MTT

I don't always bet the flop, but here I did.

What is your turn play?

As always, please give a rationale for your move and what you put the BB on.

Just saying "I push" etc.without stating your reasons is of no value.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t1055)
UTG+1 (t1045)
UTG+2 (t985)
MP1 (t975)
MP2 (t955)
MP3 (t830)
Hero (t1030)
Button (t1230)
SB (t985)
BB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t75, 2 folds, BB calls t60, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls t60.

Flop: (t250) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t200, BB calls t200, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t650) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks,

Hero ???.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant see what hands he has here that you're ahead of...IOW, whats he calling PF with and then the 4/5 flop bet with that you're ahead of here? Maybe AJ, Maybe AT...but I doubt it. Flush draw is close to about ummm 0%, so thats not really gonna be part of my analysis on the turn. I am more worried about what he is ALREADY ahead with, not what he is drawing to. Sets and JT are most likely holding. AQ would raise the flop I think.

I'm lost here. I want out of this hand after the flop call and the friggin A has to come on the turn just to entice you.

Of course, QJ and KQ are possibilities too...

Dave D

09-02-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hello All,

$100 Party MTT

I don't always bet the flop, but here I did.

What is your turn play?

As always, please give a rationale for your move and what you put the BB on.

Just saying "I push" etc.without stating your reasons is of no value.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t1055)
UTG+1 (t1045)
UTG+2 (t985)
MP1 (t975)
MP2 (t955)
MP3 (t830)
Hero (t1030)
Button (t1230)
SB (t985)
BB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t75, 2 folds, BB calls t60, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls t60.

Flop: (t250) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t200, BB calls t200, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t650) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks,

Hero ???.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant see what hands he has here that you're ahead of...IOW, whats he calling PF with and then the 4/5 flop bet with that you're ahead of here? Maybe AJ, Maybe AT...but I doubt it. Flush draw is close to about ummm 0%, so thats not really gonna be part of my analysis on the turn. I am more worried about what he is ALREADY ahead with, not what he is drawing to. Sets and JT are most likely holding. AQ would raise the flop I think.

I'm lost here. I want out of this hand after the flop call and the friggin A has to come on the turn just to entice you.

Of course, QJ and KQ are possibilities too...

[/ QUOTE ]

Or a pair, 77 or below. Though I've never played this high buy in, and I know the quality of play is probably much better than a 30+3, but it's still early, he could still be a donk. On the flop, villian may be thinking hero missed, I think donks probably still happen at this buy in level.

pooh74

09-02-2005, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hello All,

$100 Party MTT

I don't always bet the flop, but here I did.

What is your turn play?

As always, please give a rationale for your move and what you put the BB on.

Just saying "I push" etc.without stating your reasons is of no value.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t1055)
UTG+1 (t1045)
UTG+2 (t985)
MP1 (t975)
MP2 (t955)
MP3 (t830)
Hero (t1030)
Button (t1230)
SB (t985)
BB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t75, 2 folds, BB calls t60, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls t60.

Flop: (t250) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t200, BB calls t200, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t650) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks,

Hero ???.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant see what hands he has here that you're ahead of...IOW, whats he calling PF with and then the 4/5 flop bet with that you're ahead of here? Maybe AJ, Maybe AT...but I doubt it. Flush draw is close to about ummm 0%, so thats not really gonna be part of my analysis on the turn. I am more worried about what he is ALREADY ahead with, not what he is drawing to. Sets and JT are most likely holding. AQ would raise the flop I think.

I'm lost here. I want out of this hand after the flop call and the friggin A has to come on the turn just to entice you.

Of course, QJ and KQ are possibilities too...

[/ QUOTE ]

Or a pair, 77 or below. Though I've never played this high buy in, and I know the quality of play is probably much better than a 30+3, but it's still early, he could still be a donk. On the flop, villian may be thinking hero missed, I think donks probably still happen at this buy in level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what this turn is all about...IOW, if he donk called thinking you missed, then you need to fire again on the turn. Even if villain called thinking you missed the flop, the A wil convince him otherwise now anyway.

The problem is here that Hero has no more room to find out and I will go broke here on the turn early in a tournament...I have no problems with betting/pushing this turn.

Dave D

09-02-2005, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Thats what this turn is all about...IOW, if he donk called thinking you missed, then you need to fire again on the turn. Even if villain called thinking you missed the flop, the A wil convince him otherwise now anyway.

The problem is here that Hero has no more room to find out and I will go broke here on the turn early in a tournament...I have no problems with betting/pushing this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur. Tarzan this turn.

woodguy

09-02-2005, 02:28 PM

I pushed the turn and immediate regretted it. My ego pushed before my head could tell it not to, gotta keep my hand off the mouse.

I think that a hand like 9T, or QJ either lead out or more likely c/r here.

I would usually expect two pair to c/r as well, but he was smart and waited for this idiot to push the turn.

I'm trying not to be results oriented here, but I think once the A hits, you have a reason to see a showdown and should get there cheap playing WAWB type strategy.

He may be drawing, but given that I am behind his likely range I think I check behind on the turn and call a medium river bet.

Since its still the first level, I'm not scared to play a 400-600 stack since that is still enough to build on.

I ran very well in August, and every FT I had at some point, or points in the tourney been down to 6BB's and come back. So if I don't fear playing short, I need to play this hand properly.

Also, If I am ahead, I am likely to stay ahead on the river and get more value calling, or betting the river if checked to. If I am ahead on the turn, my push is not being called by a worse hand, and I get no value if I am ahead.

I pushed the turn, was instacalled by 89.

No help came on the river.

Regards,
Woodguy

locutus2002

09-02-2005, 05:02 PM

I see your point and I think it has some merit.

Here's some crude math:

27 ways villain flops 2 pr
9 ways for sets
24 ways for A(8,9,Q) (by the turn)
16 ways for a str8
~75 hands you are way behind.

8(TJ), 9(TJ),Q(TJ) QK = 7X12 ways for pair with draw
~86 hands you ahe ahead.
and about ~50 flush draws.

~130 drawing hands with the flush draw

(Note I'm ignoring hands like K9 that might have called the flop and would be classified as a drawing hand.)

If the problem is that villain only calls when he is ahead, then hero should not bet the river either unless he improves again for the same reason; villain will fold the worst hand.

How much is it costing hero to check the turn. Hero has 2/3 pot equity since there are twice as many drawing hands as hands that are ahead of him: equals T400 at the turn. If villain has ~9 outs to a drawing hand then villain gives up ~20% of his equity to give villain an extra card: equals T80 (assuming neither player will commit another chip unless they are ahead).

So Hero gives up ~EV=T80 to avoid committing another chip when he is behind.

Of course checking behind opens yourself up to a steal, so its a very player dependent check.

I think you are right. Hero can check behind here and give up some EV to avoid going broke against some players.

KramerTM

09-02-2005, 05:20 PM

I think I am raising more PF here. Your raise is almost inviting callers. Did you want people to call here or would you have been fine with taking down the blinds and limps?

Second, I am betting a little less on the flop. 200 into a 225 pot seems a little excessive. The same effect can be accomplished by betting out 150 I think.

Lastly, the way this has been played, you need to bet the turn again. He could have QJs and be drawing to a straight. Don't let him see the river for free. That said, I might be tempted to fold to a reraise on the turn. I also will most likely check behind on the river regardless of the card.

Anyway, the thing I don't like is by betting so big on the flop, you are committing yourself to betting very big on the turn. If you would have bet around 130-160, your turn bet can be proportionately less allowing you to escape if you are beat.

woodguy

09-02-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I am raising more PF here

[/ QUOTE ]

I raised to 5BB's that should be sufficient.

[ QUOTE ]
the thing I don't like is by betting so big on the flop, you are committing yourself to betting very big on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Very poor pot control in this hand.

Regards,
Woodguy

KramerTM

09-02-2005, 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I raised to 5BB's that should be sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could be, but 5BBs isn't what it used to be as far as FE (which I think all PF raises MUST have).

Raising 7BB here though would follow my rule of thumb:

Since it is generally accepted that you open-raise 3BBs with 1.5BBs in pot, it follows that you should raise 2 x 3.5 = 7BBs with 2.5BBs already in pot.

Not sure how much merit there is to that rule of thumb, but I've found that helps me quickly figure out how much to raise when there are, say, 6 limpers to me.