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Bob T.
04-18-2003, 01:56 AM
I got to play and consume several coronas with Majorkong, and Clarkmeister the other night at Mandalay Bay, in the 4-8 holdem game. I had a lot of fun, and probably couldn't accurately reproduce any hand for discussion, because my memory might have been affected by the beer.

Anyway, Mandalay Bay has a rule, that caused players to take actions that they didn't intend, and we had an extensive discussion of it at the table.

Basically, the rule is that anytime you take chips in front of your cards, you have made a bet. This means that if you check with chips in your hand, and break the plane of your cards, you have in fact made a bet. If a player put a bet out, but they were behind their cards, then the player was ruled to not have acted yet.

The purpose of the rule is so that a player who has chips in their hand, cannot move forward, and then check or bet depending on his opponent's reactions. The effect is that players who have no intention of betting, and are unfamiliar with the rule, are occasionally trapped into making a bet, because they made a technical mistake. This might be an even bigger problem, because at this low limit, there are a fair number of inexperienced players who might make this mistake.

The dealer is responsible for making the decision on whether or not the chips break the plane of the cards, and discussing the rule with several dealers, produced several different interpretations of what constituted a bet or a check. I think that this is tough on the dealers, because it may create an adversarial relationship with some of the players, which might impact their tokes, so it might affect their decisions.

If a bet has already been made, a player could have several bets in his hands, and move them forward, but having additional bets in your hands did not constitute a raise, just a call, even though enough chips for a raise passed the plane of the cards.

Clarkmester said that he had seen many times where this rule trapped innocent players, but that he hadn't seen where the rule prevented angle shooting.

What are people's opinions on this rule, and how could the situation be improved?

Thanks,

Howard Burroughs
04-18-2003, 03:46 AM
What are people's opinions on this rule, and how could the situation be improved?

************************

My opinion is the rule sucks!


Clark is of course right. It creates more problems then it solves. In my opinion the rule there is enforced inconsistantly anyway. Which makes things even worse.


It's a nice room. But I've seen more arguments about rules break out there then in any other room I play in.

Heck, I see more love at Binion's.


How can the situation be improved?

Get rid of the rule.


btw, That great American trilogy Poker Essays, has an expert's opinion on the forward motion constitutes a bet rule. It's in Poker Essays volume II. Someone should get a copy for Kay White.
:-)


Best of Luck

Howard

Kurn, son of Mogh
04-18-2003, 08:22 AM
I don't think the rule itself is bad, but inconsistant enforcement makes it bad. At Foxwoods, I've seen the rule pointed out to a newcomer who was allowed to do what he intended that time, but advised to be carefule in the future, only to play in their NLHE tournament and regularly see players grab their entire stack, move it over their cards and only drop one chip as they say "call." Now, if a player announces "call" right away, there's nothing wrong with the move, but my experience has been that the verbal bet has usually come after the stack has passed the cards.

As a rule, I try to put my cards (with a token on top, of course) fairly far from me, so I don't inadvertantly break the rule.

AceHigh
04-18-2003, 09:58 AM
I'm told in some casinos (I've never actually seen it) they have a circle drawn on the felt. Once chips cross that line they are considered in action. That seems like a better rule than the one at Mandalay Bay.

Sounds like the thing to do at Mandalay would be to keep you cards well out in front of you, and in front of your chips, so it would be harder for you to make a mistake.

bernie
04-18-2003, 10:36 AM
stupid rule. why have a rule that is different from other cardrooms like this? if they want to have a rule like this, get a table like europe does and put a betting line on it. that's much more obvious than the 'plane' of your cards.

who made this rule? Ex-NFL replay booth referees? the 'plane' of your cards...gimme a break.

an innocent guy who watches a tourney on tv sees scotty N think during a hand, stacking and restacking his chips in front of his cards. then goes to the room, and just checks with chips in his hand and BZZZT!!! sorry sir, that's a call. what a great experience for a new player.

up here, it's a bet if you cut your chips. though even that has some slack. unless someone really wants to call it on someone. usually it depends on a binding action behind the player.

put your cards (protected) way out on the table, then check by slamming some chips onto your cards. check!!! that oughtta get a reaction. after all, you didnt break the plane. heh heh

b

JoeU
04-20-2003, 11:06 PM
I first played at Mandalay Bay about a year ago. Very nice room, very stupid rule. Thankfully they told me about the rule when I sat down. I thought this was stupid because people sometimes like to check with chips in their hand. Having now disagreed with this rule, I'd still play here any day. In my opinion, one of my top 3 rooms in Vegas, after the Bellagio and the Mirage.

Joe

David
04-20-2003, 11:27 PM
I play at a cardroom that uses the "line" on the table, if chips cross the line they are in the pot. During a nolimit tourney there a guy(who it turned out was holding the nuts) checked across the line holding chips and to his pretended great dismay they made him leave the whole stack in and of course the guy holding a decent hand raised him all-in and was very upset when the hands were turned over and the angle shooter won the pot. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif