turn raise for free showdown

[bank]

the 2 limpers were 40/5 and 50/7 so I raised pf...but it's probably borderline. My main question is the turn raise. Turn donker is 51/6.8/1.08 over 88 hands.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (10.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

[tizim]

I think you're better off limping preflop than raising.

I don't see much point to raising the turn, so I just call down to prevent folding the best hand or a possible 5 outer.

[Nietzsche]

I like. Depending on his "donking standards" there might be a valuebet on the river.

[bank]

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I don't see much point to raising the turn, so I just call down to prevent folding the best hand or a possible 5 outer.

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I don't he would 3 bet me with a worse hand...he's not aggressive enough. I raise to charge flush/straight draws.

[bank]

[ QUOTE ]
I like. Depending on his "donking standards" there might be a valuebet on the river.

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I thought about it cause he might donk with mid/low pair on this turn...but I thought there was a greater chance he had me beat or a flush/straight draw and wouldn't call anyway (if he has me beat i save a bet which is nice)

[Nietzsche]

You raise because there is a good chance you have the best hand and you want him to either fold or pay for his over cards, lower pair, flush/straight draw. Plenty of reasons to raise this IMO.

[yanicehand]

I really don't know if you have enough equity to be raising K9o here. And I really don't get his turn donk if its not a made hand, I think it means you're in a big trouble, but I don't have a huge problem with how you played it.

[bank]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise because there is a good chance you have the best hand and you want him to either fold or pay for his over cards, lower pair, flush/straight draw. Plenty of reasons to raise this IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That too. Thanks for expanding.

[Nietzsche]

Q9 is a made hand.

[Lmn55d]

I call. If he has a draw he's gonna bluff the river a lot anyway so charging him on the turn is irrelevant if this is true. I also don't like giving him the chance to 3bet pair + draw or something and push me of the best hand or a 5 outer. Also, if he has a 10 sometimes he's gonna call your raise and donk a nonclub river, thwarting your free showdown attempt. When you are playing people who bluff the river at a high frequency (with 0% equity) free showdown raises lose a ton of value. You also don't want him folding worse pairs and he's gonna make more if he hits on the river b/c you can't really fold at that point.

Also, I really don't like the preflop raise.

[bank]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't like giving him the chance to 3bet pair + draw or something and push me of the best hand or a 5 outer.

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Once again..his stats show he's too passive for this sort of play. Against a more aggressive donker a call down would be much better...I agree.

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Also, if he has a 10 sometimes he's gonna call your raise and donk a nonclub river, thwarting your free showdown attempt.

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I think this happens less than 5% of the time with this sort of player.

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You also don't want him folding worse pairs and he's gonna make more if he hits on the river b/c you can't really fold at that point.

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again...look at his stats...he's not folding worse pairs he's definitely showing them down.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I really don't like the preflop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea this is a pretty borderline raise but blinds were tightish.

against an unknown, tag, or lag calling turn is a MUCH better play

It is unlikely that the donk bet on the turn is coming from a draw because villian is betting into 3 people, one of whom has shown strength the entire hand. you want to see showdown, but you also want to charge draws the most, which is why I'm assuming you raised the turn. if there were other players still to act behind you i would be more inclined to make this play because you're charging them the most to draw, but in this situation you're probably up against a made hand from a villain who's trying to protect his hand. either that or he's donk betting a monster that he doesn't want to get checked through or he doesn't want to checkraise the field with. raising the turn will cost you at least two bets - you can fold to a turn 3bet but there are a lot of river donk bets that'll leave you in a :/ situation. by calling the turn and the river you're paying two bets at most, in a hand that you don't want to fold and you don't have to worry too much about charging draws anymore.

concering the preflop raise - I play it the same way but I'm not entirely sure if it's right. i'm intersted to hear some more about what other people think about it.

[yanicehand]

i meant a stronger made hand, one that makes sense. touche tho.

[tizim]

[ QUOTE ]
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Also, if he has a 10 sometimes he's gonna call your raise and donk a nonclub river, thwarting your free showdown attempt.

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I think this happens less than 5% of the time with this sort of player.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's 51/6.8/1.08 and just donked the turn into 3 players including a pfr on a board with a 3-flush flop and turn blank. I'd say he's one of the most likely types of players to donk his T on a non-/images/graemlins/club.gif river.

Plus, I think he has a pair far more often than he has a draw, but people seem to disagree with me there.

[Drontier]

I don't think if matters if you raise this preflop or not. The equity difference is too small. You just have to really know not to keep firign at an ugly flop if you raise. Raising a borderline hand at 5/10 isnt a decision that costs more than 5 cents. Theres nothing wrong either way.

[Lmn55d]

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Plus, I think he has a pair far more often than he has a draw, but people seem to disagree with me there

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I agree. LPs seem to play very passively (check/call) with draws and more strongly (but still rather weakly) with pairs.