Help me get on track (Long)

A little background information:

I'm a 17 year old freshman in college.
Started playing poker about 5 months ago.
I consider myself (I know, so cliche) better than the average poker player. (Not the average two-plus-two'er however!). I play a lot of games with my friends, $5 buy-in tourneys mostly. I often get to the final 2-3, or win, but get drawn out on a lot. Not complaining, just stating that its usually a loose/weak game. My friends all just learned how to play with other friends. Only about 2-3 of my friends do I consider "good".

I also play on PokerStars daily. I play a lot of free tourneys, either freerolls or play money sit and go's. I've gotten really close to the money in the MTT's a few times, but never closed the deal. In the sit and go's, I win more than half that I play in. There usually 9 or 18 people SNG's.

I've played for money on PokerStars a few times, but not much. I deposited $50 one night, got it up to $86 playing 1/2 NL. I went to bed and lost it all the next day. I then deposited another $100 and lost it. I stopped playing for money for like 3 weeks and last week gave it another shot. I put in $50 and played .50/1 NL for a while doing pretty good. I then tried a few tourneys 'til I was out. That's where I am now, just playing for fun on PS and $5 with my friends.

I'm obsessed with poker. I watch it on TV anytime I possibly can. I want to learn everything I can about the game. I had a big gift certificate to a local bookstore that I recieved for graduation. I used it to get Theory of Poker, Poker Essasys, HOH 1 and 2, Small Stakes Hold 'em, and Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players. I've read a little bit of all of them. I've read HOH 1 the most because I play mostly tourneys so I thought it would be good to read first.

I'm getting a better understanding of poker everyday, but I still truly know that I'm not even 1% there. I know there is more and more and more for me to learn. I'm setting short-term goals for myself all the time.

My situation now is this: I can't play with anymore money on PS out of my credit card because it's my spending money while I'm here at college and I need it. But my birthday is Sep 17 and I know I will get at least $150. I plan on using that money to start a bankroll on PS. I know that wouldn't even be sufficient for 1/2, and barely enough for .50/1. But I know it's possible to slowly build up a bankroll to grow with.

I would love to hear any and all suggestions. Which of those books should I concentrate on first? Should I start of playing small buy-in tourneys and SNG's to build my bankroll?

There is a casino 5 minutes away from the campus I am living on, it is on an indian reservation so 18 year olds are allowed. As far as I know, there lowest limi is $3/6. Would I need over $1000 dollars to be able to play that level comfortably?

How should I go about becoming an over all better player? Playing ring games or tourneys? What should I aim for?

I think my young age is an advantage right now, because I have a lot of time to learn the game before I'm even out of college. I would love to be able to make a good amount of extra spending money this time next year.

I apologize if that was unorganized, I also realize I may come of young and stupid. I am not big-headed, I know that I have a LOT to learn, and I am looking to learn it. Any replies would be GREATLY appreciated.

[Jorge10]

Ok I started off like you, then I started playing omaha high low and well...search my name if you want to hear more on that, but thats not the point 150 is a good amount to start. What do you play in the sit and gos limit holdem? or NL holdem? I would expect you to play NL holdem, if thats the case Poker Stars is not the place to start, go to Party Poker and play the 25 NL tables and work your way up, 150 is a big enough bankroll for that level. If the answer is Limit Holdem, Poker Stars still stinks, go to Party Poker and work your way up from .5/1 on up.

It's going to suck monster donkey balls... but you have to play $1-2 limit poker or lower... very-well... until you build up your bankroll to 1,000 the big blind of any NL game you want to play.

I don't care how many success stories you hear about people building $100 in a $3,000 bankroll overnight. It CANNOT be done... and it CANNOT be sustained.

My ex-girlfriend is a full time prop player at a prestigious casino... and she still plays 1-2$ limit to earn $50 a day. She uses it for gas, coffee, and movie rentals.

Plus: this limit experience will polish the most important poker skill there is Patience, patience, and some more patience.

Hope this helps.

[Rotterdaum]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I will get at least $150. I plan on using that money to start a bankroll on PS. I know that wouldn't even be sufficient for 1/2, and barely enough for .50/1. But I know it's possible to slowly build up a bankroll to grow with.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're talking about NL as far as I know. In that case, you should know 150 is not barely enough for 0.50/1.00.
$1000 is barely enough for 0.50/1.00. This is very important to learn

[Jorge10]

The 25 tables on party have .10/.25 blinds and are NL holdem, I used to win like 30 bucks a day in those, except I played PL high low, the blinds were the same and so was the buy in, but still its a start once he builds a bankroll he can move up, but itll take time.

Are the books I listed a good collection to grow with? I read Phil Hellmuths Texas Hold 'em and it gave me the foundation I have now. I don't really like that book however, and I'm wondering what book (that I listed) I should study next. I'm thinking SSHE?

Suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[Cincy Peach]

You sound sincere, hope you don't mind a long rambling answer. I started where you are at (low bankroll but high eagerness to learn and improve.)

At this point in your pokerlife, PokerStars is absolutely where you should be. You're right, $150 is slim BR for .50/1.00, so play lower. PS has tables with limits that are literally nickle/dime. Moreover these tables are reasonably tough because they attract a lot of people like you. I would play there until you could beat it.

Once you have a little better BR ($300 perhaps) I would move to Empire (same as Party). The only drawback to empire is that .50/1.00 is the lowest game they have. But, the games are much softer, with a lot more casual players. Too, Empire has nice bonuses that are very easy to clear, which should put an extra hundred bucks in your pocket every month or so. All sites have bonuses but empire's are usually 100% up to $100 and VERY easy to clear.

Your post did not say weather you are playing limit, NL, ring games, or tourneys. Choose what you are best at now and play it exclusively until you master it (you will know when that is because you will have a nice BR.) I used to bounce between different types of games, until I noticed that when I played limit ring games exclusively my BR went up steadily. When I dabbled in other forms, my BR went down. At this point in your pokerlife it is more important to build a BR than to worry about being 'well rounded' - you have many years ahead of you to do that.

If you find it difficult to resist tournaments, one thing you can do is play freerolls (free tournaments). Most sites have them - at empire you have to play 24 hands in a day to qualify for a freeroll tournament. The winners split a small prize package. it's a way to scratch the tournament/NL itch for free.

About casinos. When I started playing poker I had a distrust of internet poker and started in a casino. I got my head handed to me. All these guys looked like Johnny Moss. I lost hundreds quickly and fled. After about six months of study and internet play I returned. The difference was night and day . . the same guys that seemed so tough previously turned out to be mostly poor to average players. The live games in casinos are MUCH softer than the internet, and you can make nice money. The problem is that with a $3/$6 game you can lose several hundred dollars in a bad session. The fish will constantly illustrate that it is better to be lucky than good, at least on any given hand. I suggest the following approach to live play . . .

You know the guideline that says you should have a 300 Big Bet BR to play a given game? throw that out the window. Take as much money as you are willing to lose, no more. In my experience, sessions that start bad tend to stay bad. for a $3/$6 game, $300 would be a healthy buy-in, but if you lose half of that, it is time to leave. I have had math types tell me this is silly, but even if it is not mathmatically defensible it is good money management. On the other side of the coin, you could make a lot more than the $150 you are risking. Just be careful not to get sucked into the trap of playing too many hands, just because everyone else is. The pace is much slower live than online. Relax, talk to the people around you, and don't play marginal hands just because you are getting board.

Hope something here might help - good luck

[WordWhiz]

Two words: Bonus whore!

Seriously, with $150, you'll grow your bankroll much faster from bonuses than from actually winning money playing poker. I've won a little over a thousand after 3 months of .5/1 and 1/2 play w/ a win rate of around 2-3 BB/100. But I've made about $1500 bonus whoring, and I only learned about that a month ago. I've made $200 at Pacific, $200 at UB, $300 at Empire, $300 at party, $100 at Classic, $100 at Sporting Bet, $200 at BetHoldEm, and I'm working on even more bonuses at Party, Empire, Absolute, Imperial, etc. as we speak. Have no shame at being a bonus whore. You need money to make money, and that's how you get it.

[KidPokerX]

This is probably the worst advice for you. Please do not follow his idea of bonus whoring. That act is for the kids - you're here to learn how to play poker. Sounds to me like you are very passionate about the game and you sound ready to learn.
With that, please don't lower yourself to a whore.

peace

[pzhon]

You just started college. Poker should not be a high priority. College is much more important.

Set a cap on the amount of time you play (including watching poker on TV). Ten hours per week is plenty. Don't exceed that cap. Don't lose sleep to play poker. Don't skip class to play poker. Don't skip socializing to play poker online. Don't use money you can't afford to lose.

People love to imagine all of the money they can rake in from poker, but you have to learn a lot before you can make more money per hour playing poker than you can flipping burgers. Play microstakes games until you are sure you are a winner, then maintain that habit as you move up. Or, don't worry about trying to improve, and just have fun, the way 90% of people play poker.

If you have the skills, the safest way to build a bankroll rapidly from a few dollars to a few hundred is through SNGs and penny-ante NL. At that point, you can build your bankroll rapidly through bonus whoring, but the key is to acquire the skills. Once you have the skills, you can build your bankroll rapidly.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a casino 5 minutes away from the campus I am living on, it is on an indian reservation so 18 year olds are allowed. As far as I know, there lowest limi is $3/6. Would I need over $1000 dollars to be able to play that level comfortably?

[/ QUOTE ]
Playing 25 hands per hour for minimum wage against horrible players is a waste of time. Even if you average more per hour than playing $0.50-$1 online, you aren't getting enough experience.

$1000 should be plenty if you are a solid winner. $100k is not enough to prevent you from going bankrupt if you are losing.

To reiterate, college is much more important.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a big gift certificate to a local bookstore that I recieved for graduation. I used it to get Theory of Poker, Poker Essasys, HOH 1 and 2, Small Stakes Hold 'em, and Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players. I've read a little bit of all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You read just "a little bit"?

[ianlippert]

Buy pokertracker and log 50K hands at the microstakes (NL or limit, whichever you prefer), this way you will know how good you are. Once you are beating the microstakes move up to whatever your bankroll can handle. For $150 that would .25/.50 limit or .05/.10 NL. There is no reason to go broke playing poker.

Like another poster said, make sure school comes first. Poker is like anything, it can pull you away from your studies. I know ppl that have failed terms because of games like counter strike, poker is much more addictive.

You also need to realise that it takes a long time to grind out of microstakes. I started getting serious about poker in February. I started at .01/.02 at UB, and I am just now playing 1/2 and feel like I have been moving up at a solid clip. The only people that build bankrolls in a short period of time are people who are already pro.

Dear Poster,

Boy I am sure glad I didn't have the same world you have when I went to college more than about 20 years ago. No internet no Casino down the street.

I started playing cards with my grandparents when I was about 5. Multiple different games because when we visited them there was virtually no TV in their remote area. My earliest poker memories are of playing with my halloween candy after trick-or-treating when I was about 8. I continued to play in home games until I was 14 when I went to a large high school in IL which had a very competitive chess team.

I spent my high school years playing competitve chess (we eventually won two 2nd place team awards in the state championship event). I went to college and continued to get a very good job and make very good money as an IT consultant.

When my job required me to move to the West coast I moved to Vegas. Great housing market low taxes/etc. While my wife changed her career and took grad class I started playing poker more and more poker with the whole idea of getting experience. I wanted to make money playing POKER so bad I played low limit just for experience. I did this WHILE I worked fulltime making more than 100K per year.

I started reading all the same books you have plus about a dozen others. After playing live games 20-30 hours per week(1/2&2/4&3/6&4/8) I slowly got better, but in general I was down playing live. Then I switched over to online. The lower rake. Worse play and no tips really helped. I played mostly 3/6 with some success I was up about $1000. I moved up to 5/10 and busted out. I repeated. I repeated. I repeated. Finally I had 5/10 success and ran my bankroll to 2K and moved up to 15/30. I busted out. I repeated the 3-5-15. I busted out. Finally I had success at 15 and ran my bankroll to 10K. Played there for 3 months and busted out again. I dropped back to 1/2&3/6. Eventually I built it up to 1K. Then I went to 5/10 and worked up to about 2K and moved up to 15/30 and ran it to 10K and busted out again. I repeated the whole process and finally stuck at 15.

Over the last 18 months I have pocketed more than 15K above all my small buyin (several thousand dollars) and have a bankroll of more than 25K. I have won my way into 2 10K events. I have mostly resisted moving up to 30/60 because I am having plenty of success at 15 and I am not anxious to bust out again.

I went to college found professional success that allows me to consult for 80-100 p/hr. I play poker to suppliment my income and challenge myself in a different way. Life balance is extremely important. I have a wife and a family. I play poker when it works for everyone in the family. I play after kids go to bed etc. Eventually it is that balance that will help me win a significant amount of money in a big event or move up to serious limit levels.

For now I would suggest you read everything you have. There is also an Internet poker book by Hilger that is good. The middle level TH book by Chaffiano(sp) is one of my favs. Play the lowest level you can find for experience. Forget about money. No offenese but at your current level you are not going to make money and if you do it is short term money. I prefer PP to PS bc I find the games weaker but in general the online game is so weak compared to what the game was 5 years ago any game is pretty good. GET LOTS OF CHEAP EXPERIENCE. After busting at 15/30 with 10K bankrolls I had to drop to 1/2. This was painful. BUT YOU HAVE TO WANT THIS SO BAD it really doesn't matter what level you play. I have gambler friends who consistently lose and refuse to back off of playing about their bankrolls. Now they are always broke.

Get a good job. Work your way up.

Good luck.

Brett

[subzero]

You are not properly bankrolled for 1/2 NL. You need to have a big enough bankroll to sustain the swings that are common in NL holdem. For 1/2 NL, you should have at least $2,000.

My suggestions...
1. Take a month and live in the SSNL forums. Read everything (start here: url=http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3268411&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1]SSNL FAQ v3.0 [/url]).

2. While reading/learning, save money for a bankroll.

3. Start at .10/.25 NL with $300-400 to get your feet wet. There are plenty of beginners at that level. Don't move up to .25/.50 NL until you've built your bankroll to $700.

4. Go to class. Poker will always be there. This will probably be your only chance at a college education. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks for all the help guys. To the poster who asked why I only read a little bit of the books: I got them all at the same time. I've glanced through each of them but havn't decided which one I should read through thoroughly first and study. I'm gonna go with SSHE, I read about 40 pages of it today and learned a lot.

This may be a dumb question to you guys, but its something that has me a little bit confused. When you guys refer to building up a bankroll, do you mean when your winnings are that high? For example, if I start with $150 and decided thats efficient for .10/.20 NL. Then somehow, I win $850. So now my account is at $1000. Is that my bankroll? Or is my bankroll whatever I have left after I take out what I want? I figure that all the people who live off online poker cash out their winnings very often.

I don't intend on devoting a hazardous amount of time to poker. I plan on getting good grades and attending class. With all the free time in college however, I know I could become a great player if i really tried and studied at it.

Thanks again guys.

[lil feller]

As others have already said, focus on college. Not only is making a living as poker player not all its cracked up to be (from a guy that does it), its difficult to succeed at. Go to school, get an education and play for fun/profit on the side when time allows. First and foremost, make your education your first priority.

Second, on the BR issue. I'm surprised that I didn't see anybody mention bonus whoring. Thats an easy way to build a $600 or so bankroll. Just go from site to site, deposit, play microlimit limit HE (you aren't near ready for cash NL yet) develop patience and play off your bonus. when your done, cash out and change sites. not only will this help you get started it will get you some much needed experience. You probably aren't nearly as good as you think you are, thats the case with most beginners.

good luck,

lf

Bob,

From the bankroll standpoint. What we are saying is you need to be successful at a particular limit. When you have success over a long period and long is very long 30-70K hands you will see a profit. What we are recommending is leaving the winnings in your account and move up.

You mention cashing out. In general I wouldn't cash out anything until you are playing the limit you want to stay at for a while with a min of 300 BB at that level. Then if you win extra cash out the extra. The math would look like this...

You want to be playing 5/10. You need 300X the BB or 3000 in your account. IF you have a good week/session and win an extra 1000. You could take that out. IF you want to be playing 15/30 you'd want 9000 bankroll. So if you keep cashing out at 510 you will never get the bankroll to move up.

Hope this makes sense.

Brett

[vexvelour]

I think SNG's are a great roll-builder. Good luck.