how do you point out your own mistakes?

[Yort Mada]

Thanks to everyone who gives correct play or insite to all of my hands/posts. I do realize that you guys dont have to reply to anything, but you do and i appreciate it.

on to the question.

I'll give an example of what made me really think about this.

a pal of mine was watching my play one table of 2/4. We do this sometimes just to call out the many many ;mistakes i make. i'm on the button with jts, 2 posters, 2 limpers, sb and bb in the pot at this point.

i call. he says you should have raised there.


this brings me to the point. i've read ssh a couple of times. edmillers new book and a couple others. these books give very solid information but they cannot show you every hand and what play to make... so how do i learn which play is profitable on EVERY play? If my pal hadnt been there, i would have thought it was correct just to call (meaning the most EV in that situation) when it turns out that raising is. How many other plays do i make that could be more +ev but i have no clue cause i feel its already correct hence i wouldnt be asking anyone about it so i'm blinded on that play for life =)

The hand is just an example. call and raising are both +ev.

[Str8Fish]

First, you're on the button, so you have positional advantage. Also, by raising, you do two things... you knock out people that may have somewhat better cards than you, such as Ax, or Kx, and secondly, now nobody can tell what you have. By a raise, they figure you probably have something good and will (hopefully) check to you after the flop, which is immensely helpful if you're on a draw at that point. The more I play and the more I read, the more I'm convinced that position is one of the most important aspects of the game.

So, to wrap up, the raise was probably purely based on your position. From late position, in most situations, it may be +EV to raise.

Anybody correct me if I made a mistake as I am also a semi-beginner and may have gotten something completely wrong.

[Yort Mada]

no, i think you said it just fine. i understand why that play is good in that situation but my question is ...

i read and play read and play. getting better and understand concepts more and more the futher i go, BUT in these kind of situations or maybe k9s or 9ts... i think NOW that i've discussed the hand that its still probly correct to raise all those but the only reason i know is cause someone pointed it out. If my pal didnt point it out i would have never saw it.

[DeathDonkey]

Good question, and you are right to question how this can occur. For me, it happened by getting a deeper understanding of the theory side of poker. Read and reread Theory of Poker, when you look at a hand post or give advice think "why is this the best play" it all comes back to the same theoretical stuff.

Then, and this is a big one: watch and talk to players better than yourself. No one can learn everything on their own.

-DeathDonkey

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
so how do i learn which play is profitable on EVERY play?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great question, and the only reason I haven't replied yet is becasue I don't have time to do it justice.

I still don't, but I did want to point in the direction where the answer lies to this question. You learn which play is the right play on every hand by understanding:

1) The concepts behind the play
2) The opponent(s) involved and thier tendancies (including a read of thier hand range)
3) The EV of all the possible plays by combining 1 & 2

When you start to understand these things and do them well, you'll set the kool-aid aside, forget all the hand charts, and play great poker.

I hope people who have time will elaborate. This is only like the question of all time.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so how do i learn which play is profitable on EVERY play?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great question, and the only reason I haven't replied yet is becasue I don't have time to do it justice.

I still don't, but I did want to point in the direction where the answer lies to this question. You learn which play is the right play on every hand by understanding:

1) The concepts behind the play
2) The opponent(s) involved and thier tendancies (including a read of thier hand range)
3) The EV of all the possible plays by combining 1 & 2

When you start to understand these things and do them well, you'll set the kool-aid aside, forget all the hand charts, and play great poker.

I hope people who have time will elaborate. This is only like the question of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too, feel this is the ultimate question. And I can't possibly to it justice...but:

I always feel like I'm making mistakes, or that I have more to learn -- and yet some sessions I can't identify obvious mistakes in my play (so that I might post them). So, recently, I've become very "pro-sweat". I like to watch people play, I like to play while being watched (not dirty. just stop it right there tough guy). Seeing the flow of the game in real time, making decisions with a fellow player in real time with the (true) information present at that instant, and actively discussing the plays (not during, but later) has been very helpful for me and hopefully them. Usually, there is something new that pops up and I have an "aha" moment - or at least something to discuss and post on the boards for clarification if we are both stumped...

[rafct]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Respondendo a:</font><hr />
I too, feel this is the ultimate question. And I can't possibly to it justice...but:

I always feel like I'm making mistakes, or that I have more to learn -- and yet some sessions I can't identify obvious mistakes in my play (so that I might post them). So, recently, I've become very "pro-sweat". I like to watch people play, I like to play while being watched (not dirty. just stop it right there tough guy). Seeing the flow of the game in real time, making decisions with a fellow player in real time with the (true) information present at that instant, and actively discussing the plays (not during, but later) has been very helpful for me and hopefully them. Usually, there is something new that pops up and I have an "aha" moment - or at least something to discuss and post on the boards for clarification if we are both stumped...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good way. It is probably similar to chess where if you play one million games without advice you can keep making the same errors and the advice of better players is what makes you improve. I feel I would improve if a good player analyzed my hand histories. But as this requires time and effort from the person who could be doing good $$ playing, it seems not very doable

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand is just an example. call and raising are both +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is more +EV? That's what you've got to figure out.

The real question you need is "Why?"

Why does he want to raise JTs on the button? If he can't make an argument (it says so in such-and-such a book is not much of an argument), then there's no reason to favor his position over yours.

There are also situations where it may not be clear what the right move is. You need to accept that you will sometimes be unable to determine precisely what the best move is. When this is the case, it doesn't matter what you do, but you should still argue both sides of the coin for practice.

Why doesn't it matter? If you're making a play that's either +1.45 EV or +1.47 EV -- calculated in an ideal perfect information world -- you lose very very little by making the "wrong" choice. But of course, with limited information, the EVs really read something more like +1.45 +- .15 EV and +1.47 +-.15 EV. Both are within the margin of error of each other, so there's no reason to favor one over the other.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel I would improve if a good player analyzed my hand histories. But as this requires time and effort from the person who could be doing good $$ playing, it seems not very doable

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucky for your, it's not that hard. You are a better playing than yourself. Replay your hand histories in PT. You would be surprised how much better you will think when you get some time and distance.

Second, people analyze hands here all day every day. Grunch those hands, then read the rest of the replies. Very helpful.

Third, put up a post and ask if anyone wants to go over some of your hands or trade histories. These people are crazy, and some of them have jobs where they can't play poker, but they still think about poker all the time.

-D

[ClaytonN]

Here's what I like to do:

I'll play a long session of 1/2 six max, and then when I'm done I'll drink a small cup of tea.

When that's done with, I'll take a warm shower. After the warm shower, I will jump out the bathroom window to the pavement 20 feet below. The subsequent heavy concussion and brain injury will cause me to stagger around, hopefully back to my door (assuming I remembered to unlock it).

When I get inside, I can only hope that I will be fortunate enough to catch a glance of my pokertracker stats, and I'll see a sticky note on the monitor that will order me to do them (but I won't remember my name, so that will be kinda hard).

[ThaHero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so how do i learn which play is profitable on EVERY play?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great question, and the only reason I haven't replied yet is becasue I don't have time to do it justice.

I still don't, but I did want to point in the direction where the answer lies to this question. You learn which play is the right play on every hand by understanding:

1) The concepts behind the play
2) The opponent(s) involved and thier tendancies (including a read of thier hand range)
3) The EV of all the possible plays by combining 1 &amp; 2

When you start to understand these things and do them well, you'll set the kool-aid aside, forget all the hand charts, and play great poker.

I hope people who have time will elaborate. This is only like the question of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have time but don't think I have all the knowledge to answer this question totally, but I'm willing to try.

There (hopefully) comes a time in every poker player's life where eventually he just "gets it." I think sometimes we confuse ourselves even more by studying and loading our brains with more information than it can handle, then we misapply that information.

I find it's best to just go step by step. Learn one aspect. Focus on that for maybe, 2,000 hands or something, until you feel you really have a good hold on that. Another thing is repitition. After a while you automatically know what the correct move is, because you have been in the same situation so many times. Of course, hopefully you know the reasons why, and that's why TOP is such a good book(or so I hear, haven't read it yet).

I don't know if it's possible for someone to know and make the correct play EVERY SINGLE PLAY. We all don't always play our A games. Factor in multi-tabling, and we DEFINATELY aren't playing our A game at EVERY TABLE at ALL TIMES. The most you can do is, using your study and experience, try to make as many correct plays as possible. You have plenty resources. If you pay attention and work hard at it, you should improve to where you understand the game better than your opponents. And may you run good as well.

This is something I had to go through when I started playing in the Madden tournament circuit. When I first started, most of the seasoned vets were way ahead of me. I never even messed with the practice mode. Only had maybe one or two plays that I thought were great. They would destroy those plays and I'd be sent home.

I studied the game, got a whole scheme together in practice mode, and finally started to play better. Putting in more time on the game, I really felt like I had "become one" with the game. I was always thinking of what my opponent would do, but now I was less confused as I have seen someone else do this and that and now it was automatic for me to defend or attack it.

Poker is the same way. Learn what it is that's giving you problems. Take that to the lab. Learn why it confused you, what the correct play would be, and the next time you are approached with that situation, you should know what the correct play is- to an extent.

I guess I could have summed this whole post up into one thing- time. It will take time to make the correct play everytime. But you will notice as you continue to work on your game you start to make less mistakes and start to make more correct plays. And then you lose your whole roll trying to qualify for the WSOP. /images/graemlins/grin.gif true story(almost...)

[DeathDonkey]

There is a Madden tournament circuit??? How lucrative is it? That's insane to me.

-DeathDonkey