how do you point out your own mistakes?

[Yort Mada]

Thanks to everyone who gives correct play or insite to all of my hands/posts. I do realize that you guys dont have to reply to anything, but you do and i appreciate it.

on to the question.

I'll give an example of what made me really think about this.

a pal of mine was watching my play one table of 2/4. We do this sometimes just to call out the many many ;mistakes i make. i'm on the button with jts, 2 posters, 2 limpers, sb and bb in the pot at this point.

i call. he says you should have raised there.


this brings me to the point. i've read ssh a couple of times. edmillers new book and a couple others. these books give very solid information but they cannot show you every hand and what play to make... so how do i learn which play is profitable on EVERY play? If my pal hadnt been there, i would have thought it was correct just to call (meaning the most EV in that situation) when it turns out that raising is. How many other plays do i make that could be more +ev but i have no clue cause i feel its already correct hence i wouldnt be asking anyone about it so i'm blinded on that play for life =)

How do you know that raising is the more +EV play there?

Because your friend said so?

I am pretty sure that if it is a raise, it is only marginally so - I think that either play is correct, depending on your reads at the table.

Part of the problem with raising with JTs on the button preflop is that there are still two people yet to act - so you may feel confident that the two limpers do not have premium holdings, but you don't know anything about the SB and BB.

[Yort Mada]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know that raising is the more +EV play there?

Because your friend said so?

I am pretty sure that if it is a raise, it is only marginally so - I think that either play is correct, depending on your reads at the table.

Part of the problem with raising with JTs on the button preflop is that there are still two people yet to act - so you may feel confident that the two limpers do not have premium holdings, but you don't know anything about the SB and BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you really question the hand i can go in depth but the hand was just an example . Please disreguard questioning the hand unless you really wanna know the reasoning behind the raise. the question i'm asking is:

how can you point out a mistake or a less +ev play than if you did something different if you dont have a professional poker player to explain things to you? If you think its the most +ev play but it isnt how could you possibly realize?you wont be posting a hand that you think is the max +ev so you will never know.

thanks for the quick reply hank

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

a pal of mine was watching my play one table of 2/4. We do this sometimes just to call out the many many ;mistakes i make. i'm on the button with jts, 2 posters, 2 limpers, sb and bb in the pot at this point.

i call. he says you should have raised there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the other replies yet, so any mistakes here are mine alone.

First off, let me say that the difference between raising or calling here will be inconsequential in the long run. If you always make the wrong move here, you would hardly notice it.

That said, let's talk about the hand. Let's just look at a Poker Stove simulation. If you assume the other players are playing random hands - could be 72o even - then your friend is right, you should raise.

However, that's unrealistic. Let's say the limpers are playing any two suited cards, any broadway cards and any pair. Let's also say the blinds are playing random hands. And let's also assume the blinds will call if you raise. You have about 25% equity, which is just over your fair share. A very slim raising situation, if you ask me.

You'll have the same equity if you limp and the blinds come along.

Let's assume the limpers are playing the hands listed above and that you raise and the blinds fold. You are now in a three-way pot against not totally random hands. According to Poker Stove, your equity is now 33%. You went from a slight equity edge to even equity. Even worse, if you hit your hand, there are only two players to make second bests to pay you off rather than four.

I think a call is the right play in most cases. Of course, the game texture and player styles might easily make another play better.

Regards,

T

You learn from the only true teacher in the universe.

Experience.

[Yort Mada]

yes, i know its boarder line. but lets say its not a totally different hand that i would not LOSE money but not make as much in the long run with a certain play. I make a play thats +ev but not as much +ev as possible. If its a +ev play chances are i probly wont post it on 2+2 so how would i know another play is more profitable?

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, i know its boarder line. but lets say its not a totally different hand that i would not LOSE money but not make as much in the long run with a certain play. I make a play thats +ev but not as much +ev as possible. If its a +ev play chances are i probly wont post it on 2+2 so how would i know another play is more profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Experience, as Hank said. There are only so many situations that will come up preflop. You think about them after you suspect you may have made the incorrect play, and then you simulate them. Either go to twodimes.net or download Poker Stove and run through some simulations.

If you read through the main books, such as SSHE, you'll see statements like "medium suited connectors like a multiway pot and they like to see the flop cheaply". Then try simulating some of those hands to see where the cutoffs are and make assumptions to see how they turn out. Hopefully the next time you find yourself in that situation, you'll have a better handle on the situation. The simulation I gave in my first reply is the type of thing you need to be thinking about.

There's a lot to learn about poker. Wait until you branch out past Hold'em where it becomes even more complicated.

Regards,

T

[Yort Mada]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes, i know its boarder line. but lets say its not a totally different hand that i would not LOSE money but not make as much in the long run with a certain play. I make a play thats +ev but not as much +ev as possible. If its a +ev play chances are i probly wont post it on 2+2 so how would i know another play is more profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Experience, as Hank said. There are only so many situations that will come up preflop. You think about them after you suspect you may have made the incorrect play, and then you simulate them. Either go to twodimes.net or download Poker Stove and run through some simulations.

If you read through the main books, such as SSHE, you'll see statements like "medium suited connectors like a multiway pot and they like to see the flop cheaply". Then try simulating some of those hands to see where the cutoffs are and make assumptions to see how they turn out. Hopefully the next time you find yourself in that situation, you'll have a better handle on the situation. The simulation I gave in my first reply is the type of thing you need to be thinking about.

There's a lot to learn about poker. Wait until you branch out past Hold'em where it becomes even more complicated.

Regards,

T

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a ton for the reply. yea, thats where i simulated lots and lots of hands in that situation (twodimes) and decided taht rasing IS beter in that situation. anyway thanks again.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks a ton for the reply. yea, thats where i simulated lots and lots of hands in that situation (twodimes) and decided taht rasing IS beter in that situation. anyway thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, okay.

Care to share?

T

[Yort Mada]

i cant give you a lot of the simulations atm, i'm at work but basically jts will win more than its fair share. JTs i dont think is considered a medium suited connecter... if it is i think its on the very end. With 2 callers from mp. 2 posters from mp3 and cutoff. the hand went mp call mp2 call mp3 was already posted co was already posted, they both checked to me. the hands that they limp with i have to assume i have the best hand here and there is no way i'm letting the bb and 2 posters get a free flop.

[SheridanCat]

Alright, I misread your original post. With six other players in, a raise is clearly correct - assuming most of them will call, which they almost always will.

T