Too thin? 10/20 river raise/fold

[Lurker4]

Good, or too thin? Anyone like just raising flop, raising turn, or calling down/bet if check to? Villain leans towards laggy but not too loose/overaggro.

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.00 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (2.00 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (4.00 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.00 BB.

[NLSoldier]

Raise preflop, given that you didnt, I would raise the turn.

[wackjob]

PF raise here sucks. I'm ok with a bluff raise on the turn.

[wheelz]

why does the pf raise suck?

why do you think the turn raise is a bluff?

[Subby]

I like it. If villian is laggy, he's raising your blind with Qx on up. Looks to me like you are ahead on the river.

I have occasionally seen donks complete their sb with monsters, but that happens infrequently enough that I think you can dismiss it here.

[Smarty]

I'd rather raise the turn than the river here.

[adamstewart]

I'm with the others ... I don't see much of an advantage to raising the river.


I often raise preflop when SB open-completes - even with crap. (Fold equity on the flop is enough justfication alone).

I could also see throwing in a raise on the turn, but I see myself simply calling the turn a lot of the time too.



Adam

[Lmn55d]

adam, I haven't yet been convinced that the increased folding equity you gain from raising any 2 preflop makes raising any 2 good. Maybe you can convince me. It just seems that you have a ton of folding equity already when they check to you (which they do fairly often in my experience). Raising pre makes the pot bigger which gives them more incentive to continue or to play back at you. It seems to me that even the lags sometimes are like "whatever just take it" when they complete in sb preflop.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
adam, I haven't yet been convinced that the increased folding equity you gain from raising any 2 preflop makes raising any 2 good. Maybe you can convince me. It just seems that you have a ton of folding equity already when they check to you (which they do fairly often in my experience). Raising pre makes the pot bigger which gives them more incentive to continue or to play back at you. It seems to me that even the lags sometimes are like "whatever just take it" when they complete in sb preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. Raising any two pre-flop here does not makes sense to me.

FWIW, I open limp occasionally from the SB and think that in the right spots limping, instead of raising, increases my FE on the flop.

[aba20]

I love raising open completers with hands like JT, QJ, T9, 97 since an Ace or king will usually win the pot for you as well as pairing one of your other two cards. I usually like doing this to take the initiative from weak opponents. Strong ones can identify the strength of there hand and raising isn't as effective against them. Jim Brier in "How good is you limit hodem" discuses this idea.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I love raising open completers with hands like JT, QJ, T9, 97 since an Ace or king will usually win the pot for you as well as pairing one of your other two cards. I usually like doing this to take the initiative from weak opponents. Strong ones can identify the strength of there hand and raising isn't as effective against them. Jim Brier in "How good is you limit hodem" discuses this idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't think jim wrote that book.

[aba20]

sorry, byron jacobs with jim brier

[Lurker4]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts...the more I think about it, the more I believe a turn raise here is the best play, for several reasons:
1. a 6, a weak 8, and maybe a strong 8 will bet/call this turn and likely check/call river, while if just called on turn, on many rivers these hands will just check/call, which means I lose a bet from them.
2. the usual reasons for waiting for the river, ie to encourage a bluff, less likely to get 3-bet by a better hand, to not fold out a worse hand that is drawing to few outs, etc, do not apply here. Many bluffing hands have 7 outs (gutshot+pair outs) here due to the coordinated nature of the board, and I don't mind making them pay or folding those hands with a turn raise. The only hands really drawing to 2 outs are 22-55 and 77, and those are relatively unlikely due to the PF limp. Also, there aren't many hands that will 3-bet the turn, and any that could 3-bet this turn likely will 3-bet river anyway.

As for raising PF w/any two after an open-completer, I'm still unsure about this. I probably need to open up my range but I'm not quite sure a PF raise w/any two, especially after you're seen raising w/junk, increases fold equity on the flop.

Results: Villain shows 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif for flopped bottom two /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[wheelz]

I don't raise any 2... but 97o is good enough I think.