Hand from 2+2game last night, turn play [Archive]

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bottomset

09-01-2005, 02:21 PM

it was a serious game, and everyone was inline

opening from the CO with J7s is pretty loose, I had been showing down good cards so I decided to loosen up a bit, and take a shot, Fuji 3bets me from the BTN

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

ok got a heart draw, an weak overcard, and a weak backdoor straight draw.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, 

ok picked up a gutshot, and the 9 is unlikely to hit his 3bet range, I think there are a few options here

check/call
bet
bet intending to 3bet
check/raise

my thoughts were its possible he still has UI overcards, AK, AQ, AJ, and KQ all make sense if he doesn't have the heart draw, I think there is a good chance he folds right there, also his bet often means he has few outs if c/r since it will be an easy fold, or he has a good hand that doesn't mind it. I need to be right a fair amount of the time, but do improve often on the river

ok some scenarios

he calls the c/r, river pairs me .. I??
he calls, river bricks I??
he 3bets me, I hit the gutshot, river plan?
he 3bets me, I hit the FD, river plan?

TomBrooks

09-01-2005, 02:34 PM

It looks like you need to improve to win and you have probably 12 outs, making you a 3:1 dog. I'd want to call this, not raise it. A raise is only netting you 1:1 with one opponent and you are opening up the possibility of getting three bet.

Shillx

09-01-2005, 02:36 PM

This is okay, though there are other lines that you could consider. Notice that you don't really mind if he checks behind since you only have J-high. If the turn card were the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif for example, you would want to bet here to prevent giving AK-AQ/KQ a free card. If he checks behind here, all he is really doing is giving you a free card since he figures to have J-high beat at this point.

Obviously you shut down if he 3-bets and you don't find anything. If he does 3-bet, I would check/fold a river 7 and bet/fold a river jack (or maybe check/call but good players could possibly 3-bet this turn to take a free SD so I kinda like betting). Gamble and check/raise if you make the flush (if the card is low) or straight. If the flush card is the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif -Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif I would just come out betting.

I'm not a big fan of the turn check/raise semi-bluff, and I probably would have check/called (I would be doing a good amount of bluffing on the river). I don't really like betting since I feel like A-big will just call it down. A check/raise in this spot probably gives you better fold equity since you have to fear a check behind by AK or AQ or KQ. When you check/raise, you are telling him that you don't fear giving a free card and he might lay down some hands that you want him too.

Brad

thesharpie

09-01-2005, 02:38 PM

I like the turn, it will be hard for him to call with his AJ+.

When he just calls the check raise I pretty much always bet the river. I don't expect him to bet something I beat when I pair, but I expect him to sometimes call with something I beat. I think the pot is large enough to take a stab when it bricks to fold out KQ or AJ+.

When he 3 bets I check raise when we hit our draw.

kapw7

09-01-2005, 02:39 PM

I think C-Ring the flop is standard here. After showing weakness on the flop (you wouldn't check-call with a strong hand in a flush draw flop) he is not folding to a turn C-R very often and if he calls then you have to bet the river as well unless an non heart A (or K) falls.

kapw7

09-01-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

When he 3 bets I check raise when we hit our draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

C-Ring when we hit would be a mistake. (unless hes a maniac etc)

SCfuji

09-01-2005, 02:47 PM

terrible play bset. you should quit poker now! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Shillx

09-01-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When he 3 bets I check raise when we hit our draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

C-Ring when we hit would be a mistake. (unless hes a maniac etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

You have it backwards. Check/raising the river after check/calling the whole way is a mistake. If he has AK or whatever he will just check behind on the river after we call the 1st two streets. We probably aren't taking a WA/WB line when we don't bet the river, so an even smarter villian would oftentimes check an UI AA or KK here since betting doesn't have any value on a lot of river cards. Either we missed our draw and will fold or hit or draw and will raise. Sometimes we will have a pair and will call, but these times are offset by the times that we fold a pair on the river and check/raise with a better hand.

We make our money when we check/call by bluffing the river from time to time. By using a proper bluffing strategy (we would be doing it about 4% of the time) we can make quite a bit of extra cash.

Brad

@bsolute_luck

09-01-2005, 03:05 PM

i don't know what to do if we miss as when i c/r i figure i'm obliged to bet again. i hope to rid myself of this problem, but not sure when/how just yet.

if we hit our flush, i'm betting out and calling a raise.
i was thinking i'd c/r if our gutshot came in, but if he's 3-betting suited /images/graemlins/heart.gif OCs, he'll just check behind, so i'm not sure.

i'd like to hear what hands should be folding to this c/r? another problem of mine is if i have OCs, i'm calling and folding the river UI, if i have the suited /images/graemlins/heart.gif OCs, i'm 3-betting- is this spewing on the turn?

kenberman

09-01-2005, 04:35 PM

I'd rather c/r the flop, and lead any non A or K turn.

Shillx

09-01-2005, 04:56 PM

If overcards are going to fire here, they should laydown to a check/raise. Even if they peel and fold the river UI, it doesn't hurt us since we are going to bet every river. Small pocket pairs are also going to fold as well.

Damn Stone Pale Ale is good. Really hoppy and bitter...Gerber Baby likes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

@bsolute_luck

09-01-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if they peel and fold the river UI, it doesn't hurt us since we are going to bet every river

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the line i was asking about basically i feel since we c/r, we've obligated ourselves to bet whatever river comes- yes? i wasn't sure if that was correct or not.

and yes, smaller pocket pairs i can understand.