How to play this? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

09-01-2005, 09:48 AM

Villain is a TAG.

I'm unsure about the flop raise. Another line would be to call until the end; that might cost me 1SB extra but I would get an extra chance to make trips on the river.

Same for the turn; I bet because I figured he would probably fold if he wouldn't hold a 9. But then checking would only give him 6 outs at most for free, while on the other hand if he would have the 9, it would give 2 free outs to me.

Any thoughts?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB

peterchi

09-01-2005, 10:03 AM

How tricky is he?

If you haven't seen him do anything out of line, I play this the same.

09-01-2005, 10:08 AM

He had not caught my attention with anything unusual yet. According to PT he was a TAG.

Piiop

09-01-2005, 10:50 AM

What did you put him on when he bet out on the flop? A TAG player usually isn't betting this drawless lowcard flop into 4 players with nothing.

sy_or_bust

09-01-2005, 11:41 AM

I agree. The flop situation looks much better than it really is. You should probably just fold.

09-01-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What did you put him on when he bet out on the flop? A TAG player usually isn't betting this drawless lowcard flop into 4 players with nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
The hero needs to listen to this statement, is is very unlikely that your opponent is going to bet this board into a field of 4 without a hand that beats 55. So fold the flop.

Dopey

09-01-2005, 12:36 PM

Are you saying if you are said TAG your only betting this with a 9 or a pair higher than 5's??

He was in BB an was able to check his option preflop. He can have any two cards. Any overpair he would/should raise preflop so I would rule those out.

I would assume most TAG's would lead with any 9, any pocket pair > 4, some 4's & 2's, most straight draws and in some cases overcards given the raggedy nature of the board.

I couldn't argue with a flop fold (although doing it every time in this situation seems a bit weak). I think a raise is better than a call alot of the time.
You can only be calling if you think you may have the best hand, as you do not have odds to be trying to hit anything. Raising should only cost you one small extra bet but does three important things that calling does not:
<ul type="square"> gives you more information on where you stand. If you are 3-bet you can get away from this.
gives you a possibility to take a free card.
gives you a chance to win the pot right here.
[/list]
Turn play seems pretty straight-forward to me, I play the same.

If your not folding, how is calling not worse than raising? I think this is a case of folding>raising>calling but I may be wrong. Thoughts?

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

09-01-2005, 12:43 PM

I would call the flop, and evaluate his behaviour on the turn. This would unfortunately lead me to calling the turn and the river when the 9 comes up, because it puts reasonable doubt in my mind he has it. It's unfortunate, because trip 9's beat two pair.

sy_or_bust

09-01-2005, 12:46 PM

There are no reasonable draws (53 is quite unlikely), and the only worse hand a good BB might bet is A4. Hero has a weak made hand that is vulnerable to absolutely anything. You are simply putting too much money into a tiny pot as an underdog by continuing with this hand. You need to know something like "BB will bet into a field with overcards" to play on. Against a typical TAG, you just fold.

09-01-2005, 12:49 PM

I wasn't completely sure he had a 9. He could have a 4 or something like 53 as well. After all from his point of view it would not be unlikely that everybody missed the flop.

I guess this is very read dependent, but unfortunately I did not know this player very well. I wasn't sure either what I should put a 'typical TAG' on.

09-01-2005, 12:51 PM

But your line was better in this particular case than the line I chose, because it would give you an extra 2 outs on the river ..

sean c

09-01-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But your line was better in this particular case than the line I chose, because it would give you an extra 2 outs on the river ..

[/ QUOTE ]

So getting 5.6:1 you want to call with your two outer? I am no math wiz but the pots a little small for that. Calling down here is terrible and I mean terrible poker.

09-01-2005, 01:00 PM

No I was referring to Windsorkid's line of play; that is to check call until the end.
With this line it might be you're calling with the best hand when Villain does not have the 9. If he does have the 9 then you will still have 2 outs.

Dopey

09-01-2005, 01:09 PM

I tend to agree a fold is the best play.

I don't think any hand can be "unlikely" because TAG was in BB. If he had entered the pot voluntarily then it is a much easier fold IMO because the possible weaker hands he may bet he is much less likely to have.

Depending on the game, with this board I would have a wider range of hands I would bet that the OP would beat than just A4 and I consider myself a typical TAG (Maybe a little more LAG on the flop than most typical TAGs).

My real question is if you make the decision not to fold which is better?
As I said earlier, I think folding>raising>calling.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

shant

09-01-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think any hand can be "unlikely" because TAG was in BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
53 becomes unlikely because Hero has 55. I doubt a TAG bets a 2 into 4 people. You're hoping he has A4, a discounted 53, or badly played overcards? I think this is a flop fold.

09-01-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying if you are said TAG your only betting this with a 9 or a pair higher than 5's??

He was in BB an was able to check his option preflop. He can have any two cards. Any overpair he would/should raise preflop so I would rule those out.

I would assume most TAG's would lead with any 9, any pocket pair > 4, some 4's & 2's, most straight draws and in some cases overcards given the raggedy nature of the board.

I couldn't argue with a flop fold (although doing it every time in this situation seems a bit weak). I think a raise is better than a call alot of the time.
You can only be calling if you think you may have the best hand, as you do not have odds to be trying to hit anything. Raising should only cost you one small extra bet but does three important things that calling does not:
<ul type="square"> gives you more information on where you stand. If you are 3-bet you can get away from this.
gives you a possibility to take a free card.
gives you a chance to win the pot right here.
[/list]
Turn play seems pretty straight-forward to me, I play the same.

If your not folding, how is calling not worse than raising? I think this is a case of folding>raising>calling but I may be wrong. Thoughts?

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
In this particular situation vs this particular opponent you should fold every single time. Will you sometimes lay down the best hand? Yes. That is becuz no strategy in this game works every time. All you can do is play the percentages and folding the flop is the best percentage play. When you combine the fact that a tight player is betting into a field of 4 opponents(this makes a semibluff less likely) on a rainbow board(again semibluff less likey) and the fact that if your hand is best it still may not hold up until the river, and if you are in the lead you may get outplayed and fold the best hand since your holding is marginal, and the fact that when you are trailing your crippled drawing to 2 outs, and finally the fact that this pot is still relatively small.....you have an easy fold.

Dagger78

09-01-2005, 02:25 PM

Just fold the flop. If he's a Tag he's not betting a hand here that doesn't beat a pair of fives. There are boards you can make this play on, this isn't one of them. He's not betting a drawless flop into 5 players without a 9.

09-01-2005, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree a fold is the best play.

I don't think any hand can be "unlikely" because TAG was in BB. If he had entered the pot voluntarily then it is a much easier fold IMO because the possible weaker hands he may bet he is much less likely to have.

Depending on the game, with this board I would have a wider range of hands I would bet that the OP would beat than just A4 and I consider myself a typical TAG (Maybe a little more LAG on the flop than most typical TAGs).

My real question is if you make the decision not to fold which is better?
As I said earlier, I think folding>raising>calling.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising is better than calling cuz you may be able to make the tag lay down a weak 9 on the turn. A good player will lay this hand down unimproved on the turn. Also raising the flop will save you money when youre trailing if your line is raise flop, bet turn, check river. Saves money compared to call flop, call turn, call river. And you also save money vs the call, call, call line, when you raise the flop, bet the turn and get checkraised and fold, assuming the tag doesnt checkraise bluff the turn more than optimally. So your folding>raising>calling idea is correct.

09-01-2005, 02:49 PM

Your replies were most illuminating. I had not spent enough thought on folding the flop, this must be a leak in my game.

I tried to put this problem into numbers.
When Villain has for instance Ah9s, I have about 11% when I call to the river according to Pokerstove. When I raise now, the turn and check the river I will invest 4SB to win a possible 13SB; I need 4/13, 30%, to do this. So I'm 20% short when Villain is assured to hold a 9.

This means that about 20% of the time Villain should not have a 9 when he bets to make it correct not to fold. Actually I need a little more, because Villain might outdraw me even when he does not have the 9; let's say that more than 25% of the time that Villain bets in this situation he should not have a 9.

Is that the case here? I'm not sure but I tend to agree with most of you that probably it's not.

chief444

09-01-2005, 03:04 PM

I think a TAG may bet any 4 on this board and possibly even bottom pair plus overcard or even A3 + bd flush draw. This is a decent board to play aggressively with anything you feel you'll have the odds to draw to. That being said, I don't really mind just giving up on the flop since probably half of the hands the opponent bets have you beat and the other half have quite a few outs and it's not much of a pot yet. I think if you do choose to continue contrary to what some are saying an argument can be made for just calling the flop and raising the turn and taking a free showdown if called.

Hoi Polloi

09-01-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (4.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why raise the flop and then pass up the free card. You can showdown for <= to 1BB and possibly fill up? If you're flop raise got JJ, say, to check the turn that's huge. If Villain has the nine, he made a terrible mistake checking to you.

sean c

09-01-2005, 04:57 PM

SoSo

09-01-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is a TAG

[/ QUOTE ]

prehaps more important is that, Villian is the BB. And there lies the answer.

W. Deranged

09-01-2005, 05:49 PM

The number of players in the pot is key:

In a three-way pot, you played the hand perfectly.

In a five-way pot, you should just fold the flop.

W. Deranged

09-01-2005, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (4.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why raise the flop and then pass up the free card. You can showdown for <= to 1BB and possibly fill up? If you're flop raise got JJ, say, to check the turn that's huge. If Villain has the nine, he made a terrible mistake checking to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really bad advice, in my opinion.

If we are raising the flop, it is not for a free card. It is because we are beating second pair and believe that it is particularly likely we have the best hand. The 9 is a good card for us in that it makes it less likely that someone has a 9 (and we've sucked out on bottom two pair). Hence, it is in fact imperative that we bet the turn in order to protect our hand, which is vulnerable to many overcards, and to encourage opponents with live outs against us to fold or pay to draw.

We only have two outs to improve! How could our flop raise possibly be for a free card!

Remember: tend to bet the turn when you have few outs (like here) and to check when you have many outs.

09-10-2005, 01:08 PM

How do you call the flop?

5 people, at least one has a 9. Chances are its the guy betting at you.

Fold and save a SB on the flop.