Two Pair

I used to love two pair but now I think its a cursed hand after losing with it so many times.

I would get excited after finding two pair on the flop but would keep losing with it. To trips, to a straight, to a flush you name it.

After I stopped to think about it I lost faith in it. After all it is only one step above one pair.

I have also seen lots of people get rolled with it, especially by trips.

Anyone else have feelings about two pair?

All depends what the board looks like, but I tend to agree.
That one time when I had AK and flopped AK7 and lost to a river flush sticks in my mind. I even tried to scare draws away by raising bets on the flop.

Still have a long way to go before I master the game /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[utmt40]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/utmt40/pwned.jpg

[pudley4]

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I used to love two pair but now I think its a cursed hand after losing with it so many times.

I would get excited after finding two pair on the flop but would keep losing with it. To trips, to a straight, to a flush you name it.

After I stopped to think about it I lost faith in it. After all it is only one step above one pair.

I have also seen lots of people get rolled with it, especially by trips.

Anyone else have feelings about two pair?

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So you're saying that having 55 on a board of JJQKA is a bad thing???

I think you must be the smartest poker player EVAR!

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I used to love two pair but now I think its a cursed hand after losing with it so many times.

I would get excited after finding two pair on the flop but would keep losing with it. To trips, to a straight, to a flush you name it.

After I stopped to think about it I lost faith in it. After all it is only one step above one pair.

I have also seen lots of people get rolled with it, especially by trips.

Anyone else have feelings about two pair?

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So you're saying that having 55 on a board of JJQKA is a bad thing???

I think you must be the smartest poker player EVAR!

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats so good about it? You are vulnerable to anyone holding a higher pair or any card from 10-A.

The odds of getting beat seem pretty high with the Jacks as your high pair.

You are a fool. Go away and don't open your mouth in public again.

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http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/utmt40/pwned.jpg

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I know, I know utmt - you can't get enough of me.
I love you too and happy to give you the attention that no one else gives you.

[utmt40]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/utmt40/Raymerall-in.jpg

[NutCrackerr]

I like two pair a lot more than one pair, but not as much as I like trips.

[EStreet20]

Man troll accounts really up the quality of these forums.

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Man troll accounts really up the quality of these forums.

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You mean like yours?

[Tailgunner]

Assuming two pair means that you have different hole cards and each pairs the board, against random hands and a random third card on the flop:

<ul type="square">
The smaller the field, the better your cards play.
The higher rank, the better your cards play.
The closer the gap, the better your cards play.
[/list]
Your cards play slightly better if they are suited and the board is unsuited, but not significantly so. This difference is more appreciable in a large field where your odds may be up to 10% worse.

Essentially (as you might expect) what this means is that hands like AKs play well against any number, but you really want a smaller field with 36o. However, just about any two-pair hand plays well against 3 or less, and you are still about a 3:1 favorite heads-up with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif even on a flop as ugly as 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

You're even a 2:1 favorite heads-up against a 3-straightflush board with a weak offsuit hand. If you think you think they're still drawing, raise that pot.

In a short field this is about as bad as this hand will get on the flop. Remember that your odds may go way down on the turn, so you want to bet to take the pot down now or make them pay to draw. Watch out for hidden sets and the like... if you are check-raised or reraised be prepared to call it down. I'd only get out entirely if the heat is too bad. Even facing a push you may be getting as much as 10:1 to see the turn, so don't duck out too fast. If the turn doesn't hit you and improves the board or you suspect it hit someone else, try to see a cheap river or let it go then. If the turn bricks, keep firing.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming two pair means that you have different hole cards and each pairs the board, against random hands and a random third card on the flop:

<ul type="square">
The smaller the field, the better your cards play.
The higher rank, the better your cards play.
The closer the gap, the better your cards play.
[/list]
Your cards play slightly better if they are suited and the board is unsuited, but not significantly so. This difference is more appreciable in a large field where your odds may be up to 10% worse.

Essentially (as you might expect) what this means is that hands like AKs play well against any number, but you really want a smaller field with 36o. However, just about any two-pair hand plays well against 3 or less, and you are still about a 3:1 favorite heads-up with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif even on a flop as ugly as 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

You're even a 2:1 favorite heads-up against a 3-straightflush board with a weak offsuit hand. If you think you think they're still drawing, raise that pot.

In a short field this is about as bad as this hand will get on the flop. Remember that your odds may go way down on the turn, so you want to bet to take the pot down now or make them pay to draw. Watch out for hidden sets and the like... if you are check-raised or reraised be prepared to call it down. I'd only get out entirely if the heat is too bad. Even facing a push you may be getting as much as 10:1 to see the turn, so don't duck out too fast. If the turn doesn't hit you and improves the board or you suspect it hit someone else, try to see a cheap river or let it go then. If the turn bricks, keep firing.

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Dear TG,

Thanks for your beautiful post. Compared to some of the garbage I have read on this site, your words are like Shakespeare.

D

[jba]

two pair no good

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two pair no good

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Simple but powerful

[Tailgunner]

Two pair is a great hand, but unlike a lot of other hands it can get really weak really fast. Much of the battle is trying to determine whether your opponent actually has a better hand than you. This may seem obvious, but it's a lot harder to discern with a hand like this. However, you generally want to play them fast early on and slow down on the turn and river if they don't help. On the flop, even if you are currently beaten you probably have odds to put in several bets if you have a few people involved.

Unlike other hands, this battle is really fought on the turn. By now you have your opponent(s) is/are in one of four situations:

<ul type="square">
They were beating you on the flop and are still beating you.
They were beating you on the flop, but you improved.
They were losing on the flop and improved where you did not.
They were losing on the flop and turn, whether you improved or not, and will probably see the river no matter what.
[/list]
Two-pair is a hand that often needs to improve to survive. On the turn, if you have not improved, you are more likely going to be in a situation where you don't want to get too much money in (but may still have odds to call.) Either they are already winning, or can easily suck out on you.

The river is where the final piece falls into place. Again, if you have not improved, you should probably check/call unless you have good enough reads to raise/fold. You're out of fold equity by this point, and you'll lose more to better hands that call you than you will win from donks that just can't lay down.

[blaze666]

point of information:

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Man troll accounts really up the quality of these forums.

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You mean like yours?

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im not going out of my way to insult you, but i came across your post, and i just can't resist this one. and you say you are...27? i last heard this comeback off a 6 year old, and even then it was weak. just to let you know davey

[Dopey]

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Two-pair is a hand that often needs to improve to survive. On the turn, if you have not improved, you are more likely going to be in a situation where you don't want to get too much money in (but may still have odds to call.) Either they are already winning, or can easily suck out on you.

The river is where the final piece falls into place. Again, if you have not improved, you should probably check/call unless you have good enough reads to raise/fold. You're out of fold equity by this point, and you'll lose more to better hands that call you than you will win from donks that just can't lay down.

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No offense to the poster but how bad is this advice?

If the poster is talking about no limit the post might have a little more merit but regardless of the game (limit or no limit) it seems very very weak.

People play bad, people over value top pair, some people over value any pair.
It seems you are advocating check/calling the turn and river because you may be beat or someone might outdraw you, you are playing bad poker.

Two pair is very good hand. It does get beat but unless there is a very scary board or crazy action playing this passively is not good poker.

I only play limit where you advice is very very poor, but even in no limit it does not seem correct. Would like to hear others comments if Im wrong.

Note: If you are talking specifically like a JJQKA when you hold 55 then I take back my criticism (although there are probably better ways to play this hand then what you describe) but if talking about two pair hands in general I stand behind my comments.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[beekeeper]

Define your hand. Don't slow play if there are draws out there on the flop.

[Tailgunner]

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It seems you are advocating check/calling the turn and river because you may be beat or someone might outdraw you

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What I am saying is that it is very read dependent at this point. It also relies heavily on what falls on the turn. If the turn card fits the board your odds (especially against random hands, which is what you're talking about here, after all.. people who will play along with anything) go down drastically. I'm advocating check/calling when your chances of walking out of this pot a winner just took a nosedive.

If you've been aggressive on the flop and the turn missed you, chances are it hit someone else or improved their chances of sucking out on the river (remember, this is the math talking.) Either way, you're not likely to get rid of them now. You'll note, however, that I did suggest to continue to push the edge if the turn bricks.


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People play bad, people over value top pair, some people over value any pair.

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Yes... You'll see a lot more of this in limit, especially in low limit, and to an extent in low stakes NL and in tournaments.

You have to consider the texture of the table, but the fact remains that you are likely to have much more of an advantage on the flop, and this is where you want to get the most money in. Play cautiously on the turn, and don't throw money away needlessly on the river.

I'm recommending a basic strategy for two-pair that's based on the numbers and designed to cut losses. Of course you have to consider the nature of play on the table you are on at the moment (stakes, limits, player types, etc, etc, etc..) to determine your best line.

[Zetack]

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.

The river is where the final piece falls into place. Again, if you have not improved, you should probably check/call unless you have good enough reads to raise/fold. You're out of fold equity by this point, and you'll lose more to better hands that call you than you will win from donks that just can't lay down.

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Horrible.

[Tailgunner]

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Horrible.

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Yeah, silly me for assuming you're playing on tables where people actually know what they're doing. If you're sitting with a bunch of donks that will chase all the way to the river and call you down even if they missed, by all means squeeze them until they're dry.

[Zetack]

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Horrible.

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Yeah, silly me for assuming you're playing on tables where people actually know what they're doing. If you're sitting with a bunch of donks that will chase all the way to the river and call you down even if they missed, by all means squeeze them until they're dry.

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I'm assuming a typical party poker game from .5/1.00 up to 3/6. What game are you playing in where an unimproved two pair where nobody's played back at you is beat on the river so much that value betting it is a bad move? I value bet top pair decent kicker there pretty much every time, so I'm certainly not looking at two pair as a dog.

What do I know though, I probably suck at poker.

--Zetack

[pudley4]

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I used to love two pair but now I think its a cursed hand after losing with it so many times.

I would get excited after finding two pair on the flop but would keep losing with it. To trips, to a straight, to a flush you name it.

After I stopped to think about it I lost faith in it. After all it is only one step above one pair.

I have also seen lots of people get rolled with it, especially by trips.

Anyone else have feelings about two pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that having 55 on a board of JJQKA is a bad thing???

I think you must be the smartest poker player EVAR!

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats so good about it? You are vulnerable to anyone holding a higher pair or any card from 10-A.

The odds of getting beat seem pretty high with the Jacks as your high pair.

You are a fool. Go away and don't open your mouth in public again.

[/ QUOTE ]

sarcasm &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you

[Tailgunner]

I don't disagree with value betting. However, there are far too many variables to offer comprehensive advice on how to play without a specific situation, and no one line is always right. I merely offered a basic strategy, based on the numbers, against random hands and random cards on the board in order to provide a framework for someone who is losing money on two-pair hands.

Obviously you have to consider how your opponents are playing, what cards are falling, your position, the action on the hand and so forth. Please don't think I meant this to be taken as a mandate from heaven. Certainly the hand has value at every stage. All I meant to illustrate is the danger involved, that it can be devalued considerably, and you need to be more cautious (not to be confused with weak or passive) in your play on the turn and river.

[EStreet20]

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I merely offered a basic strategy, based on the numbers, against random hands and random cards on the board in order to provide a framework for someone who is losing money on two-pair hands.



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This guy is a troll, don't you get it? Even at my worst downswing laden, bad beat riddled time (IE now), I've never had a month wehre my PT database shows two pair as losing money over time.

[Tailgunner]

Maybe the guy is a troll, maybe he just sucks, maybe he's really trying to help himself. Maybe there are other people reading this who are too shy/embarassed to ask for themselves. I try not to assume too much or judge people too firmly when I have limited information. I think that is a positive thing both for my game and in my life.

If I am way off base, and it's been known to happen, then illuminate me. But please, support your arguments. Two-pair may not have ever been bad for you, but it can be misplayed and lose money over time.

I have no problem admitting that, while I am good, I have much to learn before I can call myself a master. My ego does not overcome my desire to improve my game, nor will I ever be too afraid to be honest in these forums... even if it means looking like a jackass.

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I merely offered a basic strategy, based on the numbers, against random hands and random cards on the board in order to provide a framework for someone who is losing money on two-pair hands.



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This guy is a troll, don't you get it? Even at my worst downswing laden, bad beat riddled time (IE now), I've never had a month wehre my PT database shows two pair as losing money over time.

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So you and your PT database are now the authority on poker?
Why don't you take your arrogant and obnoxious behaviour and go back under the rock you came from.

Wong make two pair today. He win money with two pair. Two pair is best hand for Harold. Maybe Harold let you use his special hat so you win with two pair.

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Wong make two pair today. He win money with two pair. Two pair is best hand for Harold. Maybe Harold let you use his special hat so you win with two pair.

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You aren't the same Harold in Harold and Kumar are you?