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UOPokerPlayer

09-01-2005, 05:23 AM

I am running worse than I ever have in my poker career. I'm new to the 100's and I'm not playing great, but I'm not playing terribly. I'm plugging leaks in my game and learning a lot, but I really can't catch a break.

Thus I could clog up this forum with tons of hands where I question every move I make and am uncertain about everything. I decided not to, and I will work at one thing at a time. So right now, I'm going to work on folding. Here are six hands where for me I had to think for a little bit. How to respond to this post is to either say fold or call/raise. If you want to specify the call or raise, that's cool, but not necessary. So here goes. For simplistic sake, say that all these players are typical bad party players, nothing special.

Hand 1.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($54.60)
SB ($210.53)
BB ($211.85)
UTG ($104.35)
Hero ($195.60)
CO ($164.57)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, Button calls $4, SB (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($13) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, Button calls $10, SB calls $10.

Turn: ($43) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($43) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets $30,

Hand 2
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($119.95)
Hero ($101.80)
UTG ($109.65)
MP ($131.90)
Button ($164.24)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, MP calls $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($3) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, MP calls $3, SB folds.

Turn: ($9) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $8, MP calls $8.

River: ($25) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10

Hand 3
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP ($54.59)
CO ($45.50)
Button ($35.95)
SB ($327.45)
Hero ($134.15)
UTG ($0)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
MP calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, MP raises to $6, Button folds, SB folds,

Hand 4
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($108.90)
Hero ($96.50)
Button ($154.56)
SB ($55.25)
BB ($103.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8.

Turn: ($24.50) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($24.50) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $5,

Hand 5
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($61.93)
Hero ($118)
MP ($94.92)
Button ($231.50)
SB ($151.43)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8.

Turn: ($24.50) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $15, BB calls $49.93 (All-In).

whittiphil

09-01-2005, 05:59 AM

I'd fold every single one of them.

Hand 1 and Hand 5... that sux, but chances are, trips are the hands he's betting with.

TreyOfLight

09-01-2005, 06:04 AM

If I were to suggest one change to your play, it would be to practice smaller flop bets. By betting so strongly with so-so hands, you hamstring yourself on later streets and invite slowplayers.

Hand 1: (KK, turn pairs J) fold. I can't see QQ betting like this, and (even if he's bluffing) the button could still have you beat. Betting the turn is essential. If you're concerned about pot control, it's better to underbet the flop than check the turn.

Hand 2: (top and bottom, river a 4-straight) I guess I fold but I don't like it. Crappy spot.

Hand 3: (TP on 258r) Very opponent-dependent, I either fold or stop and go.

Hand 4: (6th pair) haha

Hand 5: (KK, turn pairs J) Enhh, I think I'm beat but call anyway because I don't give short stacks much respect. A flop overbet would set up a turn push and save you this decision.

-Skeme-

09-01-2005, 06:11 AM

Fold
Fold, maybe blocker.
Fold
Fold
Fold

You don't need to pot every single flop. As far as running bad, I had the worst run of my life for the past 2 months or so. Granted I wasn't playing full time (because every time I tried playing I'd get wrecked), but I understand your pain. I'm now breaking out of my downswing and starting to have winning sessions.

It really is hard to understand that a run this bad can happen to you. It makes you second guess yourself, I know I sure did. Just do your best to cope with it and understand that luck is short term, skill is long term. It'll even out and you'll go back to beating the games and having fun. Good luck UO.

UOPokerPlayer

09-01-2005, 06:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I were to suggest one change to your play, it would be to practice smaller flop bets. By betting so strongly with so-so hands, you hamstring yourself on later streets and invite slowplayers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are so right, (sarcasm free). I am constantly thinking pot bets to protect my hand and get the most money in when I am best, but I do get trapped. I lose $50 with AQ when an ace flops against AK, or a whole stack against 22 when they hit their set on A72r board against my AK.

I worry about my bets being weak and players coming back at me with bets I cannot call. So when can I make a 2/3rd pot bet instead of a full pot bet? One example I can think of is me hitting TP-mid kicker on a draw-free board.

What about when I have a good hand? Should I be still jamming it? Example hand - 4 players to the flop I call $4 raise with 99, flop comes 7J9 with 2 clubs. Is this a spot where I can come out for a half pot bet? I think the bigger leak may be folding big hands that get caught from behind, thus my pot-sized and overbetting.

UOPokerPlayer

09-01-2005, 06:18 AM

Thanks man, I think the potting the flop is playing scared. I'm doing a little better, and am starting to see beyond the downswing that clouded my vision.

cianosheehan

09-01-2005, 06:56 AM

My initial reactions would be;
1. Fold
2. Call
3. Fold (should have bet $4)
4. Ouch, just limp preflop, no raise here. Now you've got yourself into a mess, so unless you want to risk making a big raise to represent the ace, just fold this one.
5. Dont know...this would have to come down to your feel for villain. Maybe a turn bet of $20 would have been better for definition. Typically...I think I would call.

cianosheehan

09-01-2005, 07:02 AM

One way to think about it is to just imagine what villain could be acting with...what villain puts you on. If with your tptk on the A27 board against villains 22, you have to presume villain presumes you have an A good kicker...so you yourself have to react accordingly. Sets are always hard to play against, so dont worry about them. But do worry when you are getting plenty of action from situations like this...it usually means you are in trouble.

TreyOfLight

09-01-2005, 07:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am constantly thinking pot bets to protect my hand and get the most money in when I am best,

[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble with one pair is that it's rarely ahead by much. In hand 1, as an example, you're almost a coinflip with the nut flush draw; building a huge pot early is good for him and bad for you.

[ QUOTE ]
I worry about my bets being weak and players coming back at me with bets I cannot call.

[/ QUOTE ]You'll also get calls from worse hands and pick up more pots uncontested (because you can afford to bet at more pots). Best of all, when you think you're getting played with, you can stand a normal-sized flop raise and still have enough left to lead the turn (and nail a frisky draw or underpair), without stacking off if raised.

[ QUOTE ]
So when can I make a 2/3rd pot bet instead of a full pot bet? One example I can think of is me hitting TP-mid kicker on a draw-free board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind that, on many flops, it will be impossible to price out a flush draw because any playable suited cards will have extra outs. Look to make the bulk of your pair profits on blank turns, where your one pair's equity really pulls ahead of the draws'.

1/2 pot is my default, it's enough to price out the junk draws at least. I'd be more inclined to bet big on a dry flop, because a call actually defines their hand somewhat. On a drawy board, a call means nothing anyway, I want to save my money for the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
What about when I have a good hand? Should I be still jamming it?

[/ QUOTE ]This depends on a lot of things. By betting a lot, you should be getting a lot of action, too. Against a poor player I'll just bet bigger with bigger hands and hope I can stack them before they notice. Against a good player, I'll stick to the regular bet and hope he raises.

maybedinero

09-01-2005, 07:25 AM

Without looking at the other responses:

Fold (marginal); Call; Fold; Fold; Fold

Hand 4 is awful. Don't raise preflop with a pair of threes--you need to hit a set and if not throw it away. Don't make a continuation bet this size on Party, you'll probably get called.

Don't check the turn with an overpair like in hand 1 unless you're playing a real aggressive player who you're confident will raise, or the board really stinks (e.g. 7h 8h 9h)

Hand 3 is tough, I fold without a read of villain as TAG
or ultra-aggro--I prefer to pick my spots against weak players and a pair of eights ain't it.

btetreau

09-01-2005, 10:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So when can I make a 2/3rd pot bet instead of a full pot bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that quite often a bet of 75-90% of the pot will seem to someone else like a 'pot-sized' bet. So, if you raise PF and the pot on the flop is $8, you could bet $7.25 and get the same effect as betting full pot in terms of fold equity and save yourself a buck. Honestly whenever I am going to 'bet the pot', I try to think about what amount will really seem to my opponent like a pot-sized bet, and bet that. Usually it is slightly less than the pot, achieves the same result, and will save you money in the long term. Of course, this is just in respect to when I make a continuation with AK or AQ and missed the flop. I want to either take it down right then or lose the minimum that I need to.

[ QUOTE ]
4 players to the flop I call $4 raise with 99, flop comes 7J9 with 2 clubs. Is this a spot where I can come out for a half pot bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is a situation where you want to bet at least the pot because you don't want someone to draw cheap. Especially if there is a flush draw on board and multiple other people see the flop.

fathertime

09-01-2005, 03:40 PM

Hand 1 is player dependent. If sb routinely calls my flop bets to see what I do on the turn, then I'll call this river. As sb sees it you are most likely on overcards. His call from the sb could be the jack or ten or any pp. Your check on the turn means you are afraid of the jack or you have overs. And so he can bet the river with any pair and any 2 cards, confident that you will fold.

Hand 2 I throw out a blocker on the river, fold to a raise.

Hand 3 Again player dependent, but I'd at least consider calling the minraise and re-evaluating on the turn.

Hand 4 I hate the $5 bet. I'll pay to see his cards and file a note.

Hand 5--I fold.

amoeba

09-01-2005, 03:47 PM

not a fan of betting the turn when the top card pairs with overpair.

- Turn Check Man.

fathertime

09-01-2005, 03:56 PM

On the river, you fold or call depending on player and read?

UOPokerPlayer

09-01-2005, 04:26 PM

Interesting how I check it on the first hand and bet it on the fifth. Do I know why? Of course not.

amoeba

09-01-2005, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting how I check it on the first hand and bet it on the fifth. Do I know why? Of course not.

[/ QUOTE ]

because in the 5th hand he is much shorter stacked and bloating pot is really of no consequence as you are out only 35 more. while in hand 1 he has a lot more left so bloating the pot on the turn could have dire consequences on the river.

pokerjoker

09-01-2005, 04:53 PM

hand 1 fine and call river...he could be on a missed draw just al likely as having the J
hand 2. not bad, overbeting the pot on flop is not a bad idea though....Id probably call river depending on my read.
hand 3. Call then raise turn. without a read im gone with much action past that. This is also read dependant. Against a tight player i would be more hesitant.
hand4. What could he possibly have that would fold to your C bet?
hand 5. Shyiiiit. Tighty i fold, someone who is a known semibluffer I think for a long time then maybe call.