TT - postflop

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t940)
BB (t650)
UTG (t405)
MP (t3545)
Hero (t1790)
Button (t670)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t50, Hero calls t50, Button calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t225) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t125</font>, BB folds, MP folds, Hero calls t125.

<font color="blue"> Here are my thoughts, and I think I've made an error.

Villain made a relatively large bet for her to have a Q, IMO. So I was guessing villain had either Ax or 2x. Furthermore, everyone else had folded out of the hand, making this HU.

Looking back, I think calling is a mistake, this should probably be a raise right? </font>

[chisness]

i'd push -- i think you're looking at a steal or lower pair here a lot

if you are beat, it's not too devestating

[caretaker1]

Raise pre-flop. All-in on flop. (Rarely does a player who hits trips bet it out on a raggedy board like that, they're hoping to suck bets out and then move over the top). Also, Button didn't raise pre-flop, so likely no JJ-AA. My $.02

[Jman28]

What makes you think this bet is too large for Qx? I don't think it is. With no draws on board, I think you are up against 2x or 33-99 fairly often. You should try to get the most out of them that you can, and I'd be willing to stack the button here.

I may raise here. Too many cards scare him away later. He could have the Q too. I think he doesn't have enough chips for you to try and figure that out though.

[Scuba Chuck]

Why a push? I, for some reason, don't like the push here.

[Pete H]

[ QUOTE ]
Why a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

Button's stack.

NP: Disharmonic Orchestra - Nine9nine

I think you're ahead here most of the time and button has too few chips for you to get cute, re-raise allin.

Push. Button's stack's pretty small, you figure to have him beat, he's gotta have outs, and you have FE.

Due to stack size I would push as well. Although a push here also tells him you have no Q and you will have to survive his draw which could be 2 overcards to you. If he had few more chips I like a call here and a check raise if the A doesnt come out. Even if a J or K comes on the turn I think a play like this would push top pair out anyway.

[bluefeet]

I agree with you...I wouldn't think he/she is betting a Q here.

But given that hunch, there are too many cards out there that bail her out (or represent that it did) if she's in fact making this bet with Ax, or another combination of "over-T's".

The "new pot" is t350...she is only holding back t495 - given the luxury of acting after the other's folds, I'd be putting her all-in right here.

If she does have a medium pair, it's quite possible you'll get a desperation call. If not? Well, you picked up a very nice pot.

With 11 unseen overcards (assuming she has at least one of them), proceeding to the turn is just an unnecessary risk IMO. Granted her outs are limited (holding Ax for example). But without a c/r from you on the flop, it's quite possible she'll be pushing any turn on you. If this push comes with an A,K, or J on board, you're looking at giving up the pot.

Granted, you NOT c/r'ing the flop doesn't necessarily mean you're not sitting on a Q yourself (I might just call myself if I had someone betting behind on a non-drawing flop). But this pot size &amp; her remaining stack, leaves her absolutely no other choice but to push or check/fold the turn. And I think you'll be facing a push more times than not.

Don't give her the option - check/push this bet on this flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

Here were my in game thoughts:

IMO, the bet size was curious enough that I put her on a pot steal, or a mid pp. The fact that villain is the button and didn't raise pf frankly leads me to believe she does not have JJ+. Once again, I liked moving forward with this hand because I was last to decide after the other two players dropped out. Why call? Well, there is some benefit to calling. 1) It represents a Q very well, with the intention to c/r a non-A turn card. I think this is generally an opportunity to stack villain here.

My in game thought process was that if I raise here, I'm only gonna get called by a Q hand (maybe that's wrong). Blah. Here's what happened.

Turn A
Hero checks, villain checks (curious)

River 5
Hero bets 150, villain calls

Results:
<font color="white"> villain had 57o </font>

[AliasMrJones]

I really don't like the preflop limp. Why didn't you raise and isolate that limper?

[adanthar]

I like this on all streets although I may value check/call the river.

An ace is just about the only card you hate because right now you're almost always ahead and he almost always has 3 outs, tops. There is no sense in driving him out now.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the preflop limp. Why didn't you raise and isolate that limper?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with you if I had a smaller stack, and chips are far more important. But if I'm hoping to stack someone at this stage, I've got to hope for a ATrag flop.

Furthermore, raising here likely gets the initial caller to call, and there's still some potential for an AK hand behind me. I'm not interested in battling half of my stack with TT right now. Like I said, if I were more chip starved, or had a 650 stack, I play this hand differently. 50 chips represents less than 3% of my current stack.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this on all streets although I may value check/call the river.

An ace is just about the only card you hate because right now you're almost always ahead and he almost always has 3 outs, tops. There is no sense in driving him out now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with both "almost always ahead" and "almost always has 3 outs, tops".

And I also agree with Scuba's "benefit to calling. 1) It represents a Q very well, [but not necessarily:] with the intention to c/r a non-A turn card".

My only concern is that given villians remaining chips &amp; the size of this pot with the flop action...what do we do when she pushes over our check, with a turn A, K, or J (assuming we'd auto-call any other turn)? I understand her "true" outs are likely 3. And if that is the case, we're not likely to extract anymore chips when they fail to materialize. But with her maitaining position, do we not set ourselves up for a possible unwarrented laydown to ANY "scare" card?

With a t350 pot after her flop lead, I'm just wondering if with our analysis of the lead, do we stand much to gain by giving the turn &amp; river? I don't see a check/raise opportunity coming. Nor do I see a bet/call opportunity coming. The only other likely action is a check/push/????....where "????" could result in us folding the best hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this on all streets although I may value check/call the river.

An ace is just about the only card you hate because right now you're almost always ahead and he almost always has 3 outs, tops. There is no sense in driving him out now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered the check-value call route. My thought was that I would prefer to make a blocking bet (in this case a value bet) to try and prevent a push (although, I'd likely call the push at this stage).

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t225) Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks, Button bets t125, BB folds, MP folds, Hero raises t240.

[/ QUOTE ]

[schwza]

i would've c/r'ed a-i on the flop. if villain has a hand like 66, the c/r is the best way to stack her. she'll usually have 2-3 outs, and sometimes more. if she plays this like i would (bet flop, give up), you're giving up a lot of outs for free. you might even get a loose call from a hand like A9 on the flop.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t940)
BB (t650)
UTG (t405)
MP (t3545)
Hero (t1790)
Button (t670)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t50, Hero calls t50, Button calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t225) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t125</font>, BB folds, MP folds, Hero calls t125.

<font color="blue"> Here are my thoughts, and I think I've made an error.

Villain made a relatively large bet for her to have a Q, IMO. So I was guessing villain had either Ax or 2x. Furthermore, everyone else had folded out of the hand, making this HU.

Looking back, I think calling is a mistake, this should probably be a raise right? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

With your stack and position I don't understand why you didn't raise this preflop. You've got a great hand, no one has shown strength, and you'll likely buy the button with a raise. You have enough chips to get away from this hand easily if need be.

The way you played it preflop I would probably fire out a bet about the size of the button's when the action gets to you. Any over card will probably lose you the pot and this will be a fairly easy way to find out if a Q is out there. I think you're good here a decent amount of the time.

Since you checked, I think you might as well go ahead and raise, because he's either going to put more money in the pot or not, and risking giving him free cards to slightly improve the chances of him putting money in with a worse hand seems silly. Given the size of the pot, his stack, your stack, and your hand, and previous action, you have to play this to the felt against this player. Check raising now is the best way to do this in my opinion.

[Scuba Chuck]

bigt, the reason I don't like firing a barrel first is that I don't gain any info (although I'd probably take it down with this hand). I'd much rather gain some information first. I don't need this pot.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Why call? Well, there is some benefit to calling. 1) It represents a Q very well, with the intention to c/r a non-A turn card. I think this is generally an opportunity to stack villain here.


[/ QUOTE ]

What am I missing? Why do we want to represent a Q here? This doesn't make any sense at all. Either he has a Q, lower PP, or air (overcards or not). He does not have a higher PP after limping from the button behind two limps. Against which of his holding is representing a Q beneficial? And how are we trying to represent a Q and check raise at the same time? I'm not following this.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
bigt, the reason I don't like firing a barrel first is that I don't gain any info (although I'd probably take it down with this hand). I'd much rather gain some information first. I don't need this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really lost in this post. In my opinion, betting gains you so much more information than checking. People will play their Q so many different ways if there isn't action. They may check it (likely), small bet it (sometimes), overbet it (not often), but when they're facing a bet they have to reveal something about their hand. If you get check raised this is pretty easy to let go. If the button pushes over I likely call because of how short he is, but it's read dependent. I know you don't 'need' this pot, but this doesn't seem like a high risk situation to me because of how easily you can get away from it, and you have the best hand here alot. You can make a very small bet to gain information and eliminate overcards drawing against you. There are 4 people in the pot with one left to act behind you, I don't see how you can possibly check.

I am also really interested in your thought process behind limping preflop. Not totally bashing it as I think it may be mildly defnedable, but I think a raise is much better.

[Scuba Chuck]

I really don't know how I feel about answering your questions, as I don't think I am very qualified. That being said, I don't mind **sharing** my thoughts (note: I'm not saying knowledge).

Before I get started, you have two lines of thought going here at the same time. First is to criticize my play preflop, and then subsequently postflop. And somewhere in your comments, it seems like they are crossing lines.

Preflop: Why not raise? I've indicated earlier that if my stack was smaller, I would have taken this line. In fact, how I play TT preflop is very stack dependent for me. For example, someone in EMP raises to some amount, and my stack is 700 or less, I push. If my stack is greater than that, determining my play can only be defined by "it depends." Unfortunately TT is a hand that can get you into trouble, and if you have a healthy stack, I prefer to stay out of trouble. In this hand, when there's a limper, and then I limp, it tends to encourage other limpers. So if I can build a decent pot and hit a set, I have an opportunity to pick up quite a few chips. That being said, if I raise here, I either take down 125 chips, or I get called (or worse raised) and I am now playing postflop, which I may or may not like. Will I have position? How many overcards will I have to deal with? Anyway, I don't care to commit that many chips to this pot preflop due to the size of my current stack.

How would you play this hand if you had 99?

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, betting gains you so much more information than checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put yourself in villain's shoes. She bets, two folds, and the one guy calls. What does she know? She can narrow my hand down to 4 hands, IME.

1) Qx
2) Ax
3) 2x
4) PP

So, has she gained information? Yes.

What have I gained by calling? Well, I just gained the same information as above + 1 more. A bluff. So how does betting gain me so much more info?

[ QUOTE ]
you have the best hand here alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am certain I agree here. My line is dependent on this thought.

[ QUOTE ]
You can make a very small bet to gain information and eliminate overcards drawing against you. There are 4 people in the pot with one left to act behind you, I don't see how you can possibly check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly agree with your thoughts about overcards drawing against me. This is certainly a very valid reason to lead on the flop with decent position.

Anyway, as I have said earlier. I am not an expert, I am still a learner. These are just my thoughts. There is definately merit to leading out. It's not the line I took.

Scuba

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't know how I feel about answering your questions, as I don't think I am very qualified. That being said, I don't mind **sharing** my thoughts (note: I'm not saying knowledge).

Before I get started, you have two lines of thought going here at the same time. First is to criticize my play preflop, and then subsequently postflop. And somewhere in your comments, it seems like they are crossing lines.

Preflop: Why not raise? I've indicated earlier that if my stack was smaller, I would have taken this line. In fact, how I play TT preflop is very stack dependent for me. For example, someone in EMP raises to some amount, and my stack is 700 or less, I push. If my stack is greater than that, determining my play can only be defined by "it depends." Unfortunately TT is a hand that can get you into trouble, and if you have a healthy stack, I prefer to stay out of trouble. In this hand, when there's a limper, and then I limp, it tends to encourage other limpers. So if I can build a decent pot and hit a set, I have an opportunity to pick up quite a few chips. That being said, if I raise here, I either take down 125 chips, or I get called (or worse raised) and I am now playing postflop, which I may or may not like. Will I have position? How many overcards will I have to deal with? Anyway, I don't care to commit that many chips to this pot preflop due to the size of my current stack.

How would you play this hand if you had 99?

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, betting gains you so much more information than checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put yourself in villain's shoes. She bets, two folds, and the one guy calls. What does she know? She can narrow my hand down to 4 hands, IME.

1) Qx
2) Ax
3) 2x
4) PP

So, has she gained information? Yes.

What have I gained by calling? Well, I just gained the same information as above + 1 more. A bluff. So how does betting gain me so much more info?

[ QUOTE ]
you have the best hand here alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am certain I agree here. My line is dependent on this thought.

[ QUOTE ]
You can make a very small bet to gain information and eliminate overcards drawing against you. There are 4 people in the pot with one left to act behind you, I don't see how you can possibly check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly agree with your thoughts about overcards drawing against me. This is certainly a very valid reason to lead on the flop with decent position.

Anyway, as I have said earlier. I am not an expert, I am still a learner. These are just my thoughts. There is definately merit to leading out. It's not the line I took.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey scuba, thanks for the detailed response, I'm glad you're interested. I just reread my post and I sorted of sounded like an ass and that's not what I meant to do at all.

In regards to the preflop discussion I am almost certain that it can be said raising is better than limping. I may have to remove my foot from my mouth at a later date, but I am confident in what I am saying. At this stage of the tournament you should not be playing TT from the CO for set value. It is a very strong hand and with your stack can be played as such. What I took from your post is that with less chips you would look to push, but here you can't. While I do agree that a grey area of say 900 chips would make this decision less clear cut (I still raise, and not push, but whatever), I think because of how many chips you have a raise is mandatory. You only have to invest less than 10% of your chips to make a very +chip EV play. There is a bunch of dead money in the pot and there is nothing wrong with just taking that down. If you are called in one or two places, obviously be cautious, but again TT is a strong hand and calls are not an indication you are beat. To me it sounds as if you are just not confident enough in your post flop skills to play this hand after a raise. I really think this is an important aspect of the game and would urge you to try ring games to practise your post flop game.

The main argument for leading out the flop is the free card agrument. Letting three other players peel one off against what is likely the best hand is not a good idea given how vulnerable your holding is. You say you gain extra information by letting him bet because on top of the four types of hands you can put him on, you can now also put him on a bluff. This actually means you have less information because his range of hands is larger. I think your range is a little large too as I don't know if Ax is all that reasonable, but I forget the buyin and I can't check back now. My argument for gaining more information by betting is that now you are forcing three people to take action. The button is not the only opponent in this hand, and you can now gain information on the players who have already checked. The problem is that the early players are not conveying much by checking and the button isn't conveying much by betting (lots of people bet as last to act on a paired board, right or wrong). By making them react to your bet you narrow their range so much. Not only do they now have to react, but they can react in different ways that convey different information (i.e. calling, raising, or folding). Especially since you can probably play the shortie for your stack you are now finding out if either of the first two have a Q.

Also the way you played it gives you virtually no chance to correctly get away from your hand if the button has you beat. (Note: In my method I advocate getting allin anyways, but this is read dependent, and your method leaves virtually no room for that).

On the subject of not check raising and playing it slower, the main problem is letting your opponent draw with a hand that will only give you more money if it hits (i.e. overcards). By playing so passive you are putting yourself in a position where you likely get it allin against a hand that beats you (because he will do it for you) and not extract value against a hand like a lower PP that would have paid you off if the money went in. This is why I advocate playing it fast.

This is the first novel I have ever written.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the preflop limp. Why didn't you raise and isolate that limper?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with you if I had a smaller stack, and chips are far more important. But if I'm hoping to stack someone at this stage, I've got to hope for a ATrag flop.

Furthermore, raising here likely gets the initial caller to call, and there's still some potential for an AK hand behind me. I'm not interested in battling half of my stack with TT right now. Like I said, if I were more chip starved, or had a 650 stack, I play this hand differently. 50 chips represents less than 3% of my current stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this reasoning. I didn't say push, I said raise as in 3-4xBB. I think you can make a standard raise here and not risk so much of your stack that you're committed, but still probably get heads up with the weak limper. Playing TT for set or occaisional low flop value is OK and with another limper I'd probably play it that way, but this seems like a very good place to try to isolate. It would be better in even later position, but this looks like a good spot for it. Do you ever raise (and I mean raise, not push) TT preflop?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing TT for set or occaisional low flop value is OK and with another limper I'd probably play it that way,

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does everyone think limpers are bad for us? They represent dead money with hands that are almost always worse than ours.