Open letter to myself: admitting my shame

[1800GAMBLER]

my biggest leak is playing in a bad state of mind. i always imagine the massive poker earnings will die out because of the low level of skill needed to earn these amounts, eventually the equilibrium shall balance. i'm thinking that while in a few years poker earn will be lower i don't think by that much. while poker doesn't take much skill it takes a vey rare personality type. abilty to learn, has to be high yet less than genius/very high. you need an obsessive personality. a self awareness. self honesty, ability to admit you were wrong is so rare. i have some of the skills but the none tilt, commitment and understand of the value of money skills i do not have. being young it is very hard to understand the difference between $xxxk and > $xxxk. the utility of the extra is so small in comparison to the original $xxxk, youth stupidy i guess. eventually when the games get tougher everything i have earned will go back into the poker community and solomon warning shall be correct about yet another idiot.

2 weeks ago i decided to donate 10% of my poker earnings to any charity, for selfish reasons, in the hopes of losing my tilt and understanding the value of money. so far this hasn't worked. today i made a $2k mistake which could have been avoid with more complete thought and 10 minutes ago, i made a $2k mistake which should have been avoided my not playing drunk, yes, i am that stupid. in total, that's $400 less NO gets because of my inability. so the reason for this post is because my image on 2+2 means a lot to me, my ego needs to be furfilled by people i respect, posting this, admitting i do some utterly stupid [censored] will cancel that. after that i'm not player to bust the medicore, to out do them, for pride or for respect, it should only be about winning money.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($2155)
Hero ($1752)
Button ($1460)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $77</font>, SB calls $57.

Flop: ($154) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $133</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $2078</font>, Hero calls $675 (All-In).

Turn: ($3907) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($3907) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $3907

so stupid.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
my biggest leak is playing in a bad state of mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true for many of us. Being aware of that is huge.

[Klepton]

this is a very good post.

i too share the same characteristics, and make many stupid mistakes.

[tdomeski]

Just in case you needed to read this again. .

Your Words (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=plnlpoker&amp;Number=327181&amp;Fo rum=All_Forums&amp;Words=town&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Ma in=327181&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=2961&amp;date range=1&amp;newerval=3&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=16&amp;olderty pe=m&amp;bodyprev=#Post327181)

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Just in case you needed to read this again. .

Your Words (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=plnlpoker&amp;Number=327181&amp;Fo rum=All_Forums&amp;Words=town&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Ma in=327181&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=2961&amp;date range=1&amp;newerval=3&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=16&amp;olderty pe=m&amp;bodyprev=#Post327181)

[/ QUOTE ]

I hoped everyone forgot about that /images/graemlins/smile.gif How did you remember that post by just the word town?

Rereading this post once again makes me understand how hard it is to balance every problem that comes in poker. silly things like c/r'ing too much or too little cost but things like being too obsessive or too distant matter so much. there are so so many of these, and they are very hard to eventually balance.

when i writen that post i was very obsessive, thankfully i've had good friends who kept me balanced, but since i've become too carefree. the obsessive learning paid off and the money followed but now my lack of learning and carefee attitude is my biggest fight.

i would also like to thank the people who replied to me in the first thread. at the time i wasn't humble enough to study advice - i was 18 - now i finally grasp that.

[Allinlife]

awesome post, maybe donation is the answer from me donkeying away money

gl 800!

[tdomeski]

Last fall when I compiled the two "Retro" posts of the 2+2 classic NL hands I came across it. .I remembered reading it right after you posted it originally and thought it was the greatest thing on poker I've ever read (and I've read a lot).

The line that stuck out to me was something like "naked in the town square for all to see". . . .naturally I figured town would do the trick. .

I do have total recall of everything that happens at 2+2 though.

Good luck mate.

[1800GAMBLER]

The only competition worthy of a wise man is with himself.

[B1GF1SHY]

I believe a lot of the people who love the game, study hard, and play very often are obsessive people, we love money. I'm also obsessive and have had some problems in the past but I'm getting over them. I think the key to almost always playing well and being in the right state of mind is balancing your life. You need to make time for your job, school, family, friends and poker too. If all you do is breathe poker I think it hurts you more than it helps you. Go out with your friends, spend a little time with your family, just do something you take your mind off of poker for a bit and it'll keep your head clear for when you hit the tables.

Balance and control.

[ArturiusX]

Still living in Australia?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Still living in Australia?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a 5 month trip. Great fun. I'm back in the UK now though.

[Howard Treesong]

Good post. In the words of Abdul Jalib:

Ego leads to presumption. Presumption leads to discomposure.

[KaneKungFu123]

tilt is a dog from hell.

[LuvDemNutz]

I'm right there with on the drinking and playing - I swore it off after last night.

I battle for hours to be up about a 3 buy -ins only to lose 2/3 of it in two donktastic hands that were inspired by my drunken stupidity.

My main leaks are the following:

1) Tilt
2) Alcohol
3) Playing too long / playing tired

All of these certainly affect your "state of mind".

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
while poker doesn't take much skill it takes a vey rare personality type.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that big parts of what you call "personality type" is actually skill. That's why I don't agree that poker doesn't take much skill as you say. It takes a lot of skill in my opinion to find your mental leaks and fix them, or at least be aware of them. There are people who are more skilled at that, and it's something that you can learn and improve in.

For instance, whenever I notice that there's something irritating for me in one of my opponent's behaviour, I try to focus on this feeling, as for not playing against him in an "angry" mode. It might take a while, and sometimes it's very tough, but usually if I'm working enough on this, at some point I'm not irritated any more, and what's more - when later on a different player acts the same - I'm "immuned", in a way. That's not very different from working on any part of my game.

I believe that many players are doing the same, while confronting tilt.

The same should go for any kind of mental problem regarding the game, playing while drinking, not in the right state of mind, etc. It takes a lot of skill to master all that to become the best player you can be, and to be able to play your A game most of the time you're playing. It's not just some kind of personality type, it's basically a lot of work.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
Last fall when I compiled the two "Retro" posts of the 2+2 classic NL hands...


[/ QUOTE ]
I used the search function and searched by your name for "retro" but wasn't able to find it.

Could you be so kind to provide a link?
Thx in advance.

[jhall23]

Retro (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1199682&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

Has a link to Retro II in the thread as well.

[swarm]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm right there with on the drinking and playing - I swore it off after last night.

I battle for hours to be up about a 3 buy -ins only to lose 2/3 of it in two donktastic hands that were inspired by my drunken stupidity.

My main leaks are the following:

1) Tilt
2) Alcohol
3) Playing too long / playing tired

All of these certainly affect your "state of mind".

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait until you have a wife and kids... you have to be distraction free both externally and internally to play this game. If you can't set that situation up for yourself, don't fire up some tables. It's a lesson we all learn over and over, maybe one day it will sink in.

[fnord_too]

I've recently started doing some of the things I always told myself I would do:
<ul type="square"> Play when I have no distractions (not even TV)
Don't play when I am tired
Stop when I find myself reacting emotionally to the game
[/list]

We'll see how long it lasts, but so far it has been great. For me this means playing on a pretty rigid schedule, since I work and have two children, but I think the routine aspect helps. Maybe the fact that I am focussing on STTs right now helps, too, since it is easier to quit when you are stuck there. (You just don't start new ones, as opposed to actually having to leave the table of your own volition).

I can't tell you how many times I berated my self for playing when I shouldn't. Why is it so hard to learn not to do stuff you know is stupid?

[1800GAMBLER]

I'm about to start my session.

MSN is going off.
Phone is off.
Everyone is out.

Mind is pretty goood apart from a little tired and a little hung over. If i start to do stupid [censored] i shall leave.

Throughout the session i'm going to focus on my logical thought pattern, my plan for the whole hand, how big i want the pot, etc. I'm going to try it with 6 tables at first if i shruggle i'll lower that, if not i'll up that.

[BK_]

jay i love you good luck

[HoldEmKillah]

Fantastic thread. Good luck.

[RollaJ]

Tilt is something that is rather hard to help people avoid, the other 2 I may be able to help with........

Dont Play While Drinking (notice I didnt say while drunk). As soon as you have your first drink you dont play as well as before that first drink, If you want to drink and F around do it, but play low limits.... believe me its still fun, and a lot more fun than signing on the next morning and seeing you GAVE away $1000.

the drinking thing is also related to you lack of appreciation of money, If the money doesnt mean anything to you, why would losing it bother you???
You said you gave money to charity to give you a better understanding of the value of the money. IMO if you gave it via check or credit card it wont help youo at all. If you want to see the real value of money, take $1,000 (or 500 pounds) and take a walk outside in the city one day/night go up to the first 10 homeless people or families and give them each $100(50BP), I think you will then realize what that money means, you will most likely feel very good about yourself too

[1800GAMBLER]

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/8900/meh4do.jpg

The PT screenshot are today's figures and while that sample size is just a run of (crazy) variance i'm ready to conclude that i have awful attention. Most of my mistakes in NL come because of me refusing to fold and instead of having a clear thought pattern, my logic is always weighted towards calling, i've never done this before and it's also been a while since i have 4 tabled, so i think i'm more willing to call due to boredom of folding and waiting. I also really can't focus enough to watch hands while not involved, i just distract myself with anything. Again, which is not good for NL.

When i played 15/30 table i 10 tabled it and everything seemed to fix nicely, i made more notes on players than ever, i was more focused, clear and complete in my thought process. While poker is always easy when running well - and when it's your opponents who are drunk rather than you - my 10 tabling limit game is much better than my 4 tabling nl game.

So i think it's time to move back to megatabling limit again untill i can improve my attention.

Another lessson learnt.

[AZK]

why not 8 table 1k nl?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
why not 8 table 1k nl?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will def. do that option soon too. I'll 10 table 15/30 for the next few weeks for confidence reasons then move to 8 tabling $1k 6 max, if that goes well i'll try heavily multitabling the $2k.

[wheelz]

I recommend not 10 tabling 15/30. Please.

[AZK]

You are more experienced than me in almost every aspect of poker but I feel like I can relate to the things you are going through/suffer from. You play poorly if you don't have enough going on and if you have too much going on your play also suffers. I would play better when I would play 1 or 2 tables, but get bored quickly, I tried playing 5 buttoo much was going on. 3 - 4 is ok but gets boring. It didn't really work out for me, but you are a better play so why don't you try playing higher stakes. More money always made me focus better and pay better attention. Why don't you try playing a little 25/50 and see if that can get you out of your 'funk'.

[1800GAMBLER]

Even my A game isn't good enough for 25/50 nl right now, eventually i'll do some 25/50 nl again though. I will do some party 100/200 and 50/100 though. I'm just extremely hyped about getting some solid winning hours in at 15/30 30/60 limit atm.

[Marnixvdb]

Didnt read the whole thread so I may be wrong, but that last downswing, combined with you saying that you skewed your logic into making big calls when you shouldnt, sure makes the impression you went on wintilt after the upswing that preceded it.

Maybe after losing a few buyins to this wintilt, you lose-tilted another few.

When i win a lot in a short period of time, I usually start playing too loose and tilt slightly. NL players, even the bad ones, tend to pick up on this quickly. It must save lots of money when you have this under control, because this phenonomen can really soften your upswings (just as lose-tilt deepens your downswings)

Marnix

[creedofhubris]

If you want to cut your NL variance, tighten up preflop, make fewer big bluffs and big calls. Playing marginal hands, making moves, and calling potential huge bluffs are the aspects of the game that most demand perfect reads, so if you're not yet confident in your NL reads, limiting these plays will prove +EV.

I've noticed you making a lot of pot-sized bets. You may want to size 'em a little smaller. 2/3 pot prevents you from getting pot-stuck as much while still keeping the initiative, showing strength, and charging draws. Getting allin a lot is a dangerous way to play NL.

Also, consider this mantra: don't make bluff bets any bigger than is necessary to do the job.

Good luck, and don't give up on NL yet.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
The same should go for any kind of mental problem regarding the game, playing while drinking, not in the right state of mind, etc. It takes a lot of skill to master all that to become the best player you can be, and to be able to play your A game most of the time you're playing. It's not just some kind of personality type, it's basically a lot of work.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but only some persons can do this work.

Some people can work their way out of a problem (gambling addicts, alcoholism, tilt) and some cant. Of course everyone wants to belong to the first group, but we cant choose which of those two groups we belong to.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The same should go for any kind of mental problem regarding the game, playing while drinking, not in the right state of mind, etc. It takes a lot of skill to master all that to become the best player you can be, and to be able to play your A game most of the time you're playing. It's not just some kind of personality type, it's basically a lot of work.

[/ QUOTE ] yes, but only some persons can do this work.

Some people can work their way out of a problem (gambling addicts, alcoholism, tilt) and some cant. Of course everyone wants to belong to the first group, but we cant choose which of those two groups we belong to.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's a circular argument against any kind of what we usually call "skill". You can always say that some people belong to a certain group that "can" do it, and some don't. The problem is, that there are many things that people just like to see in that way, because it makes it easier for them to believe that they are either born with the ability or not. Of course, there are some things that are based on pure talent, but many other things, including the ability to tilt less, are things in which work and practice (sometimes with guidance) can help a lot. But it is definitely not easy. It's easier to say: "well, I don't have the right personality for it".

I agree that at the bottom line you'll find people that can achieve much higher levels of "non-tilt" than others, but that doesn't mean that those others can't improve significantly on that area if they tried.

Edit: I'm aware that what I'm saying here is in fact "not-provable", and circular in itself, since you'll always be able to say that the ones who improve had the ability to improve (in exactly the amount they improved) to begin with. But then you can't discuss this subject, or any question about studying and improving, at all. And my point is that there is value in practicing, regardless of your personality type.

[chumpmasta]

1800GAMBLER,

As someone who has recently been forced from NO, allow me to say thank you for donating some of your earnings to charitys that are helping people in my city. Rest assured people like you do not go unappreciated.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Has anyone given serious thought that some small edges aren't worth pushing for most people since most people can never get away from results oriented thinking?

Hypothetical scenario: If you can play with a certain style that has a winrate of 7BB/100, but results in you having some real bad days, which sometimes cause you to get sick of poker, and then play on semi tilt at 4BB/100 while you're still stuck. What if this results in you being displeased with poker and not working on your game, or possible not playing as many hours? What if the stress leads to you needing to smoke to unwind, or possibly smoke more?

The other option is playing somewhat more ABC in a style that doesn't provide wild fluctation, but moreimportantly doesn't force you into tough spots again and again. Could the lack of tilt and stress result in other things that give you an overall bigger win? More desire to learn? Willingness to play more hours? Playing your best more often?


I hate panty wearing weak tighties as much as the next guy. I just think some of the extreme bounds of winning play is not winning for all players, or even most players, even if they understand the play and are capable of doing it well. We are not robots, we applaud these posts for people admitting they are human and are not capable of playing A game 24/7, this concept extends further than most people give credit for.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Even my A game isn't good enough for 25/50 nl right now, eventually i'll do some 25/50 nl again though. I will do some party 100/200 and 50/100 though. I'm just extremely hyped about getting some solid winning hours in at 15/30 30/60 limit atm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really like to see you contribute in the limit forums.

[IHateCats]

While it's good that you are tracking the #'s and I'm sure you probably know this but those sample sizes are so small as to be virtually meaningless. I've had tons of 2.5k hand stretches where I'm running good and I think I'm a poker god, then I get shelled for another 2k and my #'s turn out virtually the same. 10k is a minimum milestone for a relatively TAG player to determine an approximate winrate, it's twice that for a LAG.

[RUSE]

It is way too deterministic a thing to say that people cannot change who they are. As anyone interested in psychology [which should include all poker players, esp. NL ones] could tell you: people are very versatile creatures. Especially mentally. The whole concept of cognitive behavioral therapy is based on the changability of people's internal attributions.

I.e. You believe everything bad happens to you and only to you and your self-esteem suffers for that reason. CBT would encourage you to examine these instances of bad moments and find other reasons for them happening. You will soon start seeing that other people too have badbeats, maybe the other guy legitimately outdrew you because your slowplaying gave him odds to do so. Maybe God doesn't hate just you, but other people also.

It takes a certain flexibility of mind to grasp these weapons of mental warfare (point of view taking, relativity, seeing life as one long pokergame, being thoroughly honest with yourself) on your own. That is certainly a skill. That doesnt mean that it cannot be acquired...