A 2-4 action hand

[Yerma]

I watched this hand play out recently on Paradise 2-4. I had folded preflop, but I just found the way that it played out interesting. My comments are in italics.

Prelude: Rackmstackem paid off a turn checkraise + river bet by JBBUI a few hands prior when his AK flopped top pair got run down by a weak flush.

The hand:

Nine-handed. The first two fold and JBBUI calls. Rackmstackem calls [Ac Kh]. Geddy Lee calls in late [Jh 8h] and wins the button. J10Suited completes SB [Ad 8s]. Spookydz1 checks the BB.

I wouldn't have played any of the face-up hands this way.

Flop is Ah 6h Qs.

J10Suited checks. I think this is good. It's checked to rackmstackem who bets. The obvious move. Geddy Lee calls. Better than raising since there's no value here in knocking other players out. J10Suited raises. The textbook move. Folded to rackemstackem who calls. Very weak looking! It's true that he's possibly already beat here, but it's even more likely that he's up against a combination of weaker made hands and flush draws. Geddy Lee calls.

The turn is 5s.

J10Suited bets. Rackemstackem raises. Much stronger play. He must have planned, on the flop, to take a look at the turn card before putting in extra action. If a heart would have come, I think rackemstackem would have just called and tried to spike his K-high flush draw. Rackemstackem is showing good presence of mind under pressure here after messing up preflop. This looks to be the optimal line of play here, but one that I would normally miss because I'm likely to forget that the flop check-raiser is almost certain to bet the turn. Geddy Lee calls. J10Suited calls. Unless he has some reason to disbelieve, he should probably let this go here. I may call as well, although it looks like a big mistake.

River is Ts.

Checked through. It looks like rackemstackem feared two pair now, or rather that he wouldn't get paid off unless he was against two pairs. It's unclear to me whether a bet or check was best.

I think rackemstackem played great after the flop. But look at the hoops he had to go through to not get run down and all the mental effort he had to spend to play out the hand. What if he had just raised preflop? Then he just eats up JBBUI. As it played out, he eats up J10Suited instead.

Comments?

[Robk]

I think it's an easy bet for value on the river.

[MarkD]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Flop is Ah 6h Qs.

J10Suited checks. I think this is good. It's checked to rackmstackem who bets. The obvious move. Geddy Lee calls. Better than raising since there's no value here in knocking other players out. J10Suited raises. The textbook move. Folded to rackemstackem who calls. Very weak looking! It's true that he's possibly already beat here, but it's even more likely that he's up against a combination of weaker made hands and flush draws. Geddy Lee calls.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />


Unless the JTs is suited in hearts or the 6 is supposed to be an 8 he should be check/folding this flop with the described action. Not getting the odds to call, and checkraising is investing a lot of cash into a bluff.

[Yerma]

[MarkD]

[Punker]

I would have raised the AK, folded the J8s, but I probably would complete with A8o.

I think JTSuited should bet the flop. With a rainbow board, I would check.

I'm not sure Geddy Lee shouldn't raise the flop. Its a difficult tradeoff between aiming for the turn free card, versus maximizing flop action. The real problem is by passively calling, you define your hand as weak or drawing, and give the other players free licence to ignore you and bet and raise until you show something (as you might if you had flopped a set and were waiting for the turn). I think this gave rackemstackem a much easier turn raise than he would have otherwise had.

I think rackemstackem should 3-bet the flop however. I'm not a believer in the stop and go.

Geddy Lee should strongly consider folding the turn facing 2 bets cold in a 8.5BB pot without the nut flush draw. Its very thin value in calling here considering the chances of making your hand and losing given the action to this point.

I'm not sure if JTsuited should call the turn raise. He's getting a bit over 10-1 on his call, which means he should call if facing two pair that don't include an ace, and should fold to any bigger ace or two pair that include an ace. It's a question of his judgment and what he thinks rackemstackem has.

I may check the river as well in rackemstackem's place, primarily because the ace of spades is not on board, which makes it more likely that someone could have gone runner runner flush after starting with Ax of spades and the fact that given the strength I have shown, a player should have every reason to believe that a checkraise attempt will succeed.

Your last comment doesn't really make sense to me:

"What if he had just raised preflop? Then he just eats up JBBUI. As it played out, he eats up J10Suited instead."

JBBUI is barely involved in the hand. I also suspect JTSuited would have called a preflop raise and rackemstackem would have eaten them both up.

[CrackerZack]

I think J10suited should lay it down on the turn but there is no way he can put him on that hand I would think. No reraise on the flop, no pre-folp raise. If I'm J10 I probably put him on a set or 2 pair in this case. Stretching would say a flush draw with Kh or Qh (pair also obviously). I would read either being slightly ahead or way behind possibly drawing dead, so I think a fold is order. I agree the button with Jh8h is treading on thin ice calling two cold in that pot but I don't think its a mistake. Seeing the same action he should put SB on a semi-weak ace and rackem' on a decent made hand especially with him holding 2 hearts. Its a thin value but if you figure the SB will call too, you're probably getting enough. Real close though, i wouldn't lose sleep either way.

[Yerma]

Punker writes:

I would have raised the AK, folded the J8s, but I probably would complete with A8o.

I think JTSuited should bet the flop. With a rainbow board, I would check.

I'm not sure Geddy Lee shouldn't raise the flop. Its a difficult tradeoff between aiming for the turn free card, versus maximizing flop action. The real problem is by passively calling, you define your hand as weak or drawing, and give the other players free licence to ignore you and bet and raise until you show something (as you might if you had flopped a set and were waiting for the turn). I think this gave rackemstackem a much easier turn raise than he would have otherwise had.

I think rackemstackem should 3-bet the flop however. I'm not a believer in the stop and go.

Geddy Lee should strongly consider folding the turn facing 2 bets cold in a 8.5BB pot without the nut flush draw. Its very thin value in calling here considering the chances of making your hand and losing given the action to this point.

I'm not sure if JTsuited should call the turn raise. He's getting a bit over 10-1 on his call, which means he should call if facing two pair that don't include an ace, and should fold to any bigger ace or two pair that include an ace. It's a question of his judgment and what he thinks rackemstackem has.

I may check the river as well in rackemstackem's place, primarily because the ace of spades is not on board, which makes it more likely that someone could have gone runner runner flush after starting with Ax of spades and the fact that given the strength I have shown, a player should have every reason to believe that a checkraise attempt will succeed.


This is all either only mildly questionable in my mind, or alright...

Except that there's no way Geddy Lee should fold the turn. Who is he supposed to put on the better flush draw?

Also, I think rackemstackem played this perfect after the flop. Actually, I think he gains a ton after the flop by playing this way instead of 3-betting. It's not just the extra 1/2 bet from each JTSuited and Geddy Lee. It's that he'll pick that off almost sure that he's going to win the pot. He's got to figure that he's going to win from the turn onwards maybe 60% of the time. From the flop onwards...maybe less than 50% of the time.

I don't think the river question is really interesting. It's obviously a close one either way and it doesn't matter to me what he does.


Your last comment doesn't really make sense to me:

"What if he had just raised preflop? Then he just eats up JBBUI. As it played out, he eats up J10Suited instead."


I suspect that if he can get the A8o's involved and also knows how to charge the J8s's the max, then he should just call preflop here. That's a really extreme adjustment to just about everyone's play! But how would you resolve this? I can't.


JBBUI is barely involved in the hand. I also suspect JTSuited would have called a preflop raise and rackemstackem would have eaten them both up.


If that's true, then never mind.

[Yerma]

Doesn't anyone else find this hand interesting? Speak up!

[AceHigh]

Your analysis seems very good to me. That's why I haven't commented earlier.

The one point you sort of glossed over, is the fact that AKo didn't raise preflop. Do you think there are game conditions where limping first in, from middle position where this might be more profitable than raising? I'm wondering if limping might invite in the kind of Ax/Kx crap hands that end up calling him down and making him money.

What do you think? Would the SB have called a preflop raise with A8o?

[Tekari]

I think AKo should be raised to get out hands like J8s and hands that have a chance to draw out on you. It worked to his advantage that A8o called and an A flopped, but normally a raise is definetly a better idea IMO. Limping in with AKo is bad because if you get 3 or 4 more callers your hand doesn't play well in a multiway pot and you will not have flush draws etc. and you will really have to hit your flop to keep playing.

[AceHigh]

So there are never any games, anywhere where it is more profitable to limp with AK than to raise?

[Yerma]

I think it's a worse play to open-limp with AKo then to call after a caller like rackemstackem did here.

But what I said to Punker is still my question now:
"I suspect that if he can get the A8o's involved and also knows how to charge the J8s's the max, then he should just call preflop here. That's a really extreme adjustment to just about everyone's play! But how would you resolve this? I can't."

I would like to add that just calling basically eliminates the chance of picking up the pot without making a hand. Say you were in a game where that was the case anyway? Doesn't AKo become a limping hand? I rarely see this in the games that I play so I just don't know.

Would the SB have called a raise with A8o? I dunno, probably not. If he would have then never mind, raising is obviously the best play.

[Punker]

"I suspect that if he can get the A8o's involved and also knows how to charge the J8s's the max, then he should just call preflop here. That's a really extreme adjustment to just about everyone's play! But how would you resolve this? I can't."

I would resolve it by saying (as you did below) that you only get to charge them the max when the flop comes just right for you. That won't happen enough to make up for all the times you miss the flop and they hit (or outplay you) and take the pot. Further, I don't think that either A8o or J8s played the hand well either, and you can't simply rely on that always happening either.

So, yes his play worked great here, because the board conditions and his poor opposition combined perfectly to set up his play. Whether or not he should limp preflop in this spot is very dependent on how he plans to play when he misses IMO.