Horribly weak not value betting this river?? [Archive]

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SackUp

08-31-2005, 10:47 PM

SB is a solid TAG - 15/3/2
UTG is a wild donk - 58/9/1.4

I don't know about the turn slowdown, but sb is solid and bet out after capped preflop and flop and UTG is not slowing down either. It is screaming j10 to me from sb. But then he checks the river???? Appears he is now scared of a 7 or is he just being tricky??

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, UTG caps, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (19 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (28 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 28 BB

DawnToDusk

08-31-2005, 10:55 PM

I would have to say so. If they are obviously afraid of that straight filling (which they ought not to be with all that raising. I find it hard for a 7 to be out), then they don't have the nut straight either. I would say that you have to bet here on the river. Even if it gets raised behind you once you have to call.

It doesnt seem like that the SB would 3bet preflop with J10. I would have to say if anyone is doing that on the button, it is with JTs and they are rasing for value on the button. It doesn't seem like a move that someone would do after there has obviously been a show of strength infront of you.

As for the UTG player, I think his hand range is wide, but JT is still an option. Yet the checks on the river seem to indicate otherwise for JT as a holding for the UTG player. Maybe you are looking at a set vs set in this pot. I would say he has at least two pair though.

TheHammer24

08-31-2005, 11:01 PM

The turn slowdown is acceptable against a solid player. Seriously though, is he really check raising with the nuts in this huge pot on the river when no one has shown any reluctance to raise anyway throughout the entire hand? I am pretty sure you already knew this, but the river check is very weak.

SackUp

08-31-2005, 11:05 PM

ya ia agree. I got scared on the turn and was not thinking straight on the river. Boo on me!

SB had the under set. Oh if only the board would have paired /images/graemlins/smile.gif

sy_or_bust

09-01-2005, 12:46 AM

I think the turn slowdown is just a mistake. SB doesn't have JT and make the preflop call - he probably has 99, 88, or even KJs/AJs. UTG can conceivably have JT and call 2 back preflop, but he's a "wild donk" and shouldn't be given an easy range of hands.

So on the turn you're relying on wild donk to have JT, because SB doesn't. You shouldn't do this. This board has all sorts of straight+flush and set possibilities, along with conceivable 2-pair hands for donk. If it's capped back at you on the turn, you still have 10 outs + the off chance you are ahead. More often than not you're simply ahead, and get 2 callers. Then you can value bet the river as you see fit.

As you played it, SB is never checking the straight and must have a worse hand, while UTG is rarely donking around with a checkraise - you are ahead, and someone will often pay you off.

WillyTrailer

09-01-2005, 01:16 AM

I cap the turn and bet the river. I'm not putting someone with vpip of 15% coming in here with JT from the SB. In my mind it's much more likely SB has 88 or 99. When UTG doesn't cap the turn you can be fairly sure he doesn't have JT either, so go ahead and cap it yourself. Then with all of this in mind just bet the river. who has a 7?? and even so, I don't think you'll get raised by a 7 so you don't have to worry much about that.

-WT

TheHip41

09-01-2005, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a solid TAG - 15/3/2
UTG is a wild donk - 58/9/1.4

I don't know about the turn slowdown, but sb is solid and bet out after capped preflop and flop and UTG is not slowing down either. It is screaming j10 to me from sb. But then he checks the river???? Appears he is now scared of a 7 or is he just being tricky??

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB 3-bets, UTG caps, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (19 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (28 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 28 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

If this guy is good enough to c/r the river with the nut straight then good for him.

I'm betting and calling a raise. You are ahead here alot once every checks the river.