PS 2/4: AJs [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Scotch78

08-31-2005, 04:53 PM

I was 8-tabling and (mis)thought it was a steal-raise, but am wondering if my re-raise is okay anyhow? Also, does anyone call this river?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Scott

hobbsmann

08-31-2005, 04:59 PM

You're ahead of JJ, but I don't think sane players value bet jacks on a AKQxx board after you 3-bet preflop. As for the preflop 3-bet, I think it's a little thin, but not entirely bad. Of course it becomes standard if open raiser is in a steal position.

Crimson

08-31-2005, 05:03 PM

Firstly, i'd probably fold this hand PF. Depending on the read and because of its Nut flush possibility, I can see the 3betting, because at 2/4 some people will openraise w/ JTs or a mid pocket pair. Raising does help you take control of the hand, but when he caps it you should be scared. All in all, I fold PF.

This is full of some loose calls, but i dont claim to be an expert, it just seems to me that the farther you get into this the more you should be cringing. How many outs do you give yourself on the Flop? The 4 10's are probably clean, but I dont know if you can even count the A at all, because he could be capping, AA-10's, AKs, AQs.

If i had a solid read on this player i might call, but it seems like a fold.

Feedback, im new myself!

hobbsmann

08-31-2005, 05:12 PM

Scotch78

08-31-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is full of some loose calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I'm having a total brain fart right now, folding this one anywhere before the river is an absolute no-no. I have way too much hand to fold pre-flop, on the flop I'm getting 9.5:1 on a 10.5:1 draw to the nuts with plenty of implied odds to cover the spread, and on the turn I'm getting 6:1 on a 3:1 draw to the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
The 4 10's are probably clean, but I don't know if you can even count the A at all

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, a ten gives me the nuts; there's no 'probably' about it. Second, I wouldn't have folded the river if I was counting the ace.

Scott

hobbsmann

08-31-2005, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is full of some loose calls, but i dont claim to be an expert, it just seems to me that the farther you get into this the more you should be cringing. How many outs do you give yourself on the Flop? The 4 10's are probably clean, but I dont know if you can even count the A at all, because he could be capping, AA-10's, AKs, AQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop call is easy getting 9.5:1 with a gutshot, bk flush draw, and discounted A outs. The turn call is super easy getting over 6:1 on a flush and gutshot draw. By the river I think we've realized that our pair of aces is good here close to never and the fold is in order.

sean c

08-31-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, i'd probably fold this hand PF. Depending on the read and because of its Nut flush possibility, I can see the 3betting, because at 2/4 some people will openraise w/ JTs or a mid pocket pair. Raising does help you take control of the hand, but when he caps it you should be scared. All in all, I fold PF.

This is full of some loose calls, but i dont claim to be an expert, it just seems to me that the farther you get into this the more you should be cringing. How many outs do you give yourself on the Flop? The 4 10's are probably clean, but I dont know if you can even count the A at all, because he could be capping, AA-10's, AKs, AQs.

If i had a solid read on this player i might call, but it seems like a fold.

Feedback, im new myself!

[/ QUOTE ]

Also Crimson there wasn't a loose call in this hand. Hero has 5.5 clean outs on the flop getting 9.5:1 he has 10/12 outs on the turn getting 6.25:1. As far as pre flop goes if you don't feel like AJs is enough to defend your blinds against an open raise your giving money away.

bryan4967

08-31-2005, 05:41 PM

No way you fold his hand preflop. I am new here as well, and I honestly don't see why you fold the river to one bet. Are you 95 percent sure that you are beat in this scenario? Or is the pot not big enough for a crying call? Someone please explain.

akishore

08-31-2005, 05:42 PM

this is a great hand, solidly played. i would be tempted to call the river but of course it's totally incorrect. nice hand, sir.

aseem

akishore

08-31-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No way you fold his hand preflop. I am new here as well, and I honestly don't see why you fold the river to one bet. Are you 95 percent sure that you are beat in this scenario? Or is the pot not big enough for a crying call? Someone please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

95%?? where do you get that number?

he's getting 8-to-1 and needs to win this hand more than 1 out of 9 times.

what does villian three-bet here and keep betting the whole way, including value betting the river, that hero can beat?

AK has him, AQ has him, AA beats him, KK beats him, QQ beats him. there is no question this is a correct river fold, although it looks very tempting to call.

aseem

DaveB

08-31-2005, 05:49 PM

With no read on MP2 there's no way I fold the river.

akishore

08-31-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With no read on MP2 there's no way I fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does an average player cap preflop that you beat on the river?

KJ?
AT?
JJ?

not only that, villian has betting the whole way and is even value betting this river.

aseem

08-31-2005, 05:56 PM

Preflop is actually a pretty decent question. The flop and turn are fine, but I can't see folding this on the river against an unknown. You have TPTK.

Hamlet

08-31-2005, 05:56 PM

I think people are making huge assumption that the hero's opponent knows what he is doing. The hero is 8 tabling, so has pretty much no read. This could be a maniac that caps every hand he raises as often as it is a solid player that only caps AA-JJ and AK.

It is way too weak-tight to fold on the river with no knowledge that our opponent knows what they are doing.

You're probably beat. But 8-1? Do the solid players out-number the nutjobs 8-1? Not in my experience.

[ QUOTE ]

he's getting 8-to-1 and needs to win this hand more than 1 out of 9 times.

what does villian three-bet here and keep betting the whole way, including value betting the river, that hero can beat?

AK has him, AQ has him, AA beats him, KK beats him, QQ beats him. there is no question this is a correct river fold, although it looks very tempting to call.

aseem

[/ QUOTE ]

bryan4967

08-31-2005, 06:06 PM

sometimes you have to look the villian up to let him know he can't push you off with his busted flush/straight. I don't know where i got the 95%.

Argus

08-31-2005, 06:12 PM

I can't believe there is so much debate. Calling the river is a leak considering the capping range of most players, particularly after a 3-bet from the blinds. You could be against an overplayed JJ-TT, but besides that I can think of no reasonable hands you beat and many that beat you: AK, AQs, KK, QQ. Without a solid read that villain will overplay hands like this a call is unwarranted.

kenberman

08-31-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is easy getting 9.5:1 with a gutshot, bk flush draw, and discounted A outs. The turn call is super easy getting over 6:1 on a flush and gutshot draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
By the river I think we've realized that our pair of aces is good here close to never and the fold is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't count your Aces as outs on the flop if you're going to fold the river, HU, for 1 bet when an Ace hits. also, why does an Ace go from an out on the flop, but not the turn? it's not like we've gained any more information on the opponents hands.

hobbsmann

08-31-2005, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is easy getting 9.5:1 with a gutshot, bk flush draw, and discounted A outs. The turn call is super easy getting over 6:1 on a flush and gutshot draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
By the river I think we've realized that our pair of aces is good here close to never and the fold is in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't count your Aces as outs on the flop if you're going to fold the river, HU, for 1 bet when an Ace hits. also, why does an Ace go from an out on the flop, but not the turn? it's not like we've gained any more information on the opponents hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have been more clear, but given the villian's range JJ-TT will bet the flop, but will more than likely slow down by the river. So on the flop there is a small chance or A outs are good, but as the hand proceeds it becomes apparent that they were not.

Argus

08-31-2005, 06:46 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
You can't count your Aces as outs on the flop if you're going to fold the river, HU, for 1 bet when an Ace hits. also, why does an Ace go from an out on the flop, but not the turn? it's not like we've gained any more information on the opponents hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to count any ace outs for a flop call to be correct. You have 5.5 effective outs, and getting 9.5-1 you shouldn't fold.

One reason you might consider the aces to be worth perhaps a single out on the flop and not the turn is the possibility villain has QQ. While JJ may have capped preflop, I don't see a thinking villain (or most unthinking ones for that matter) betting it again on the river when the ace falls and all you've done is call. So on the turn the possibility that your ace is any good disappears.

callmedonnie

08-31-2005, 06:46 PM

I would definitely call the raise. reraise if it is a player who raises light. When MP2 raises, I never think of it as a steal really. There are still what, 6 players to act afterwards pf? I would probably lead flop, c/c turn, and river I usually end up c/c also. Sometimes even raising.

09-01-2005, 12:37 AM

I can't see leading the flop being a good play, considering the cap, unless he will cap w/ TT/JJ. That's not a value bet, and its almost surely not going to make the villain fold, so why not see the turn for 1 bet and go from there?