Saved by God? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

08-31-2005, 01:36 PM

I suspect most of you have heard this in one form or another:
--------
A man sat listening to flood warnings on his radio on a stormy night. He was a religious man so he did not worry.

The storms came, the rains came. the rains continued and slowly the waters began to rise.

It continued raining, the waters now flooded his ground floor. The whole town was flooded. The emergency services began evacuating the residents.

Rescuers in a boat knocked at his door and urged him to jump into the boat and to be taken to a place of safety.

He steadfastly refused. "God will save me, rescue others whose need is greater than mine".... The rescuers left.

The rains continued unabatedly. The waters continued to rise. By now the flood waters were 10ft high and the man was forced to go upstairs. He was Kneeling and praying when he heard a banging on the window.

"come on, get into the boat and we will take you to higher ground." the rescuers shouted.

"No!.. I'm ok, I have faith in God, he will save me, go and rescue others who are in more need." He replied. The rescuers left....

The storms continued into the night and so the flood waters continued rising. By now the waters had risen 20ft and the man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.
He was clinging desperately onto the chimney stack.

He was dazzled by a search light from above and a voice from a loudhaler urged him to climb the ladder and board the helicopter to be taken to a place of safety.

He still refused, insisting that his God would save him. .....The helicopter left.

The storm raged on and the waters continued to rise. Sadly the man eventually drowned.....

He died and went to heavan.

As he arrived at the pearly gates, he had to ask God one question, "You know that I've always been a religious man and have lived a righteous life, what I can't understand is, Why didn't you save me from the floods?"

God replied, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what the [censored] else did you want?"

spaminator101

08-31-2005, 05:44 PM

God chose whom he would save before the foundations of the earth. He does save some and not others.
He does this to make his glory and power known to those of whom he has saved.

spaminator101

08-31-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When they are saved, God heard their call and responded by showing mercy on a faithful Christian.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does God have a choice if he will save them or not? He hears all calls right? Does he just save the sincere? Are the rest insincere?

[/ QUOTE ]

God decides
Man has nothing to do with God's choice of who He wants to save

David Sklansky

08-31-2005, 06:36 PM

"God chose whom he would save before the foundations of the earth. He does save some and not others.
He does this to make his glory and power known to those of whom he has saved."

Are you one of the lucky ones? If so why do you believe it?
And if your theory is true, meaning that the unsaved can do nothing to help themselves, is it also true that the saved cannot do or say anything bad enough to get out of it?

Perhaps you are saying that the unsaved are doomed, while the saved can still screw up. So the reason not to screw up is just in case you are among the saved?

I don't even think Not Ready believes this stuff.

spaminator101

08-31-2005, 06:45 PM

DS
do you know the five points of reformed theology
1. total depravity
2. unconditional election
3. limited atonement
4. irresistable grace
5. persaverence of the saints

NotReady probably does not beleive this
Reformed theology was what was beleived by the majority of the Christian world until not long after the reformation
Thats when Joseph Arminium came in arguing aagainst the points of Reformed Theology
soon after this most new beleivers liked this better and started following Arminiun and his doctrines of freewill
Now there are very few who are true Calvinist

I only know of 2 on this forum
1.ME
2.Youdontknowmickey

David Sklansky

08-31-2005, 07:08 PM

"NotReady probably does not beleive this
Reformed theology was what was beleived by the majority of the Christian world until not long after the reformation
Thats when Joseph Arminium came in arguing aagainst the points of Reformed Theology
soon after this most new beleivers liked this better and started following Arminiun and his doctrines of freewill"

I see. So Not ready is practically an atheist. What a little devil he is not admitting it. Would love to see you two debate. Meanwhile could you answer my question about those who are on the saved list?

08-31-2005, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DS
do you know the five points of reformed theology
1. total depravity
2. unconditional election
3. limited atonement
4. irresistable grace
5. persaverence of the saints

NotReady probably does not beleive this
Reformed theology was what was beleived by the majority of the Christian world until not long after the reformation
Thats when Joseph Arminium came in arguing aagainst the points of Reformed Theology
soon after this most new beleivers liked this better and started following Arminiun and his doctrines of freewill
Now there are very few who are true Calvinist

I only know of 2 on this forum
1.ME
2.Youdontknowmickey

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive asked you to elaborate on your notion of Gods select many times in various ways and this is allways your incredibly general and vague answer. Please elaborate on what reformed theology means to you. If you are unwilling to specificly state anything please give the names of some theologians you respect. As most people understand it, reformed theology goes beyond TULIP. The thing that distinguishes reformed theologists is a belief in a moral obligation for Gods select to work actively to transform the worlds society and culture to more accurately reflect your 1600's ideal.

What does it mean to be one of Gods select and who are they? What do you propose we do about this? You stated somewhere that you found it difficult at first to accept that God actualy hated homosexuals and not merely the sin. Why did you find this difficult? Is it because of predestination and they can not be saved? What should be done with homosexuals here on earth? Are they a lost cause who should be punished?

Cooker

08-31-2005, 08:11 PM

I believe that he doesn't believe in free will. If you are elected you will believe in God and do what he requires of you, if you are not elected you will not do what is required of you, but it is not your choice as you have no free will. I think this is roughly correct.

Piers

08-31-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If god intervenes, then surely he must intervene totally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why on earth should this be true?

The problem would appear to be your expectations.

superleeds

08-31-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If god intervenes, then surely he must intervene totally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why on earth should this be true?

The problem would appear to be your expectations.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he picks and chooses he must have a reason and therefore he's intervention or lack off are total?

If he has no reason and he randomly chooses then prayer is pointless? Or do you have to buy a ticket to get in the lottery?

spaminator101

08-31-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you one of the lucky ones? If so why do you believe it?
And if your theory is true, meaning that the unsaved can do nothing to help themselves, is it also true that the saved cannot do or say anything bad enough to get out of it?

Perhaps you are saying that the unsaved are doomed, while the saved can still screw up. So the reason not to screw up is just in case you are among the saved?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because i am a christian- all who are truly christians are the "lucky"ones

i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because there is so much evidence to be found in the Bible that this is true

romans9
john17
ephesians1
every page about isrial in the old testement

those that are truly saved can never become unsaved
many beleive that they are saved but later move away from God, they were never truly saved in the first place
if you are truly called by God you can not be unsaved

xniNja

08-31-2005, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because there is so much evidence to be found in the Bible that this is true

romans9
john17
ephesians1
every page about isrial in the old testement

[/ QUOTE ]

Do responses like these anger anyone else? I used to think I could keep a clear, objective head, but it just irritates me that some people are so stupid. Should I be ashamed?

By the way, learn English or have God communicate your thoughts to us telepathically because you suck at writing.

Cooker

09-01-2005, 12:38 AM

He doesn't anger me, but he doesn't seem to realize that I and many atheists believe the bible is largely a work of collected ficitonal stories (some have a grain of fact to support them, but quite little ususally). However, I realize that he accepts only logic born directly out of statements that appear in the bible and other Christian sources, so that it is pointless for me to argue with him since I won't accept bible quotes as evidence and he won't accept logical arguments as evidence.

I will say that I have a bias toward believing that there is no God, but I don't really think it is an important question. If there is a God I think he ignores and probably doesn't even care (maybe doesn't even know about) our existence. I doubt there is an afterlife, but all probabilities suggest I will find out for sure one day.

David Sklansky

09-01-2005, 12:44 AM

"Are you one of the lucky ones? If so why do you believe it?
And if your theory is true, meaning that the unsaved can do nothing to help themselves, is it also true that the saved cannot do or say anything bad enough to get out of it?"

"Perhaps you are saying that the unsaved are doomed, while the saved can still screw up. So the reason not to screw up is just in case you are among the saved?"

"yes i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because i am a christian- all who are truly christians are the "lucky"ones"

i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because there is so much evidence to be found in the Bible that this is true

romans9
john17
ephesians1
every page about isrial in the old testement

those that are truly saved can never become unsaved
many beleive that they are saved but later move away from God, they were never truly saved in the first place
if you are truly called by God you can not be unsaved"

If I understand him correctly, this would eliminate the need for the whole forum. Plus the advertisers. This has to be nipped in the bud. You are the only one he might listen to. Please help.

sexdrugsmoney

09-01-2005, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you one of the lucky ones? If so why do you believe it?
And if your theory is true, meaning that the unsaved can do nothing to help themselves, is it also true that the saved cannot do or say anything bad enough to get out of it?

Perhaps you are saying that the unsaved are doomed, while the saved can still screw up. So the reason not to screw up is just in case you are among the saved?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because i am a christian- all who are truly christians are the "lucky"ones

i beleive i am one of the lucky ones because there is so much evidence to be found in the Bible that this is true

romans9
john17
ephesians1
every page about isrial in the old testement

those that are truly saved can never become unsaved
many beleive that they are saved but later move away from God, they were never truly saved in the first place
if you are truly called by God you can not be unsaved

[/ QUOTE ]

1) It's Israel.

The el is very important because it stands for Elohim if I recall correctly, and you will see many names of humans and angels in the Old Testament that have el on the end usually meaning "<something> of God".

2) Although as a Christian you believe the Calvinist view of "Predestination" it's important to note that not all Christians believe this, in fact most Christian sects don't.(that doesn't mean it is not true though, merely debateable)

It's important to remember to state what you particularly believe in regards to a faith when you are speaking to those who are of various beliefs, and not let your personal interpretation speak for an entire religion.

3) The 'Once saved, always saved' I believe is pretty much correct, however the Book of Revelations makes it pretty clear whoever accepts the Mark of the Beast is doomed. (as recieving the Mark is blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit - which is unforgiveable)

I also am not sure if a person 'moves away from God' that they were "never saved to begin with". Christianity teaches only God knows the nature of his relationship with each individual and thus it is important not to judge others on how we see it.

I know you are young and full of zest, but one must be wary when making bold statements on behalf of God.

Many a great mind has pondered the nature of God and his word, and read the scriptures in their original language to decipher the meaning.

Yet, from all that, the wise ones will say "I think what God is trying to say here is", and not deal in absolutes such as 'if this, then this, so that's that'. (this way of acting IMHO is what is wrong with organized religion)

Cheers,
SDM

09-01-2005, 08:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt there is an afterlife, but all probabilities suggest I will find out for sure one day.

[/ QUOTE ]If there is no afterlife, how will you find out. "You" will no longer exist, so you'll have no idea about anything once you die.

Cooker

09-01-2005, 10:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I doubt there is an afterlife, but all probabilities suggest I will find out for sure one day.

[/ QUOTE ]If there is no afterlife, how will you find out. "You" will no longer exist, so you'll have no idea about anything once you die.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a joke.

Georgia Avenue

09-01-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]

do you know the five points of reformed theology
1. total depravity
2. unconditional election
3. limited atonement
4. irresistable grace
5. persaverence of the saints

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take 1. and 3. with a side order of 5.

mike4bmp

09-01-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect most of you have heard this in one form or another:
--------
A man sat listening to flood warnings on his radio on a stormy night. He was a religious man so he did not worry.

The storms came, the rains came. the rains continued and slowly the waters began to rise.

It continued raining, the waters now flooded his ground floor. The whole town was flooded. The emergency services began evacuating the residents.

Rescuers in a boat knocked at his door and urged him to jump into the boat and to be taken to a place of safety.

He steadfastly refused. "God will save me, rescue others whose need is greater than mine".... The rescuers left.

The rains continued unabatedly. The waters continued to rise. By now the flood waters were 10ft high and the man was forced to go upstairs. He was Kneeling and praying when he heard a banging on the window.

"come on, get into the boat and we will take you to higher ground." the rescuers shouted.

"No!.. I'm ok, I have faith in God, he will save me, go and rescue others who are in more need." He replied. The rescuers left....

The storms continued into the night and so the flood waters continued rising. By now the waters had risen 20ft and the man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.
He was clinging desperately onto the chimney stack.

He was dazzled by a search light from above and a voice from a loudhaler urged him to climb the ladder and board the helicopter to be taken to a place of safety.

He still refused, insisting that his God would save him. .....The helicopter left.

The storm raged on and the waters continued to rise. Sadly the man eventually drowned.....

He died and went to heavan.

As he arrived at the pearly gates, he had to ask God one question, "You know that I've always been a religious man and have lived a righteous life, what I can't understand is, Why didn't you save me from the floods?"

God replied, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what the [censored] else did you want?"

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! This is funny... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

09-01-2005, 02:57 PM

spaminator101, you wrote "God chose whom he would save before the foundations of the earth. He does save some and not others. He does this to make his glory and power known to those of whom he has saved."

Please explain to me how this "glory" is shown. By your logic, let's say that I'm one of these lucky ones who was born with the "saved" Willy Wonka golden ticket already in hand. Now let's say my family members who all lead very kind altruistic lives are all born with "not saved" tickets. As one of the saved ones, I may certainly see this god as powerful, but I wouldn't find him glorious. Not in the least. I'd find him incredibly unjust and arbitrary.

spaminator101

09-01-2005, 04:49 PM

God is glorified because those of whom he saved do not deserve to be saved anyway
Mans soul is evil and God has chosen because of reasons not known to mankind to save the elect

09-01-2005, 04:51 PM

If God has pre-selected those that will be saved, what is the sense in missionary work or proselytizing?

spaminator101

09-01-2005, 04:57 PM

John Calvin said in response to this question, that as we don't know who is among the elect we should still strive to bring all people to Christ.

Also God uses those of us who do missionary or evangelical work to spread the Gospel. It says in Romans: 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

udontknowmickey

09-01-2005, 07:30 PM

Wow, what a mess.

Maybe there should be a predestination board. Or a Christians debate board, because it seems like non-Christians really don't care as much about this issue.

To just weigh in on this (since I know my opinion has so much weight and all =p). I pretty much agree with spam.

I believe that Scripture teaches all of what is commonly known as Calvinism and that those teachings are clear throughout Scripture, most notably in Paul's epistle to the Romans.

David - to answer your question:

"Perhaps you are saying that the unsaved are doomed, while the saved can still screw up. So the reason not to screw up is just in case you are among the saved?"

The thing about human nature is that ever since the fall of Adam, sin was introduced into the world. Adam as a representative head for all of humanity plunged the human race into judgement and filled our natures with sin. Thus humans, by nature, tend towards sin and not towards good (This is the Total Depravity).

Thus there is "no shouldn't screw up" because the truth is that you will. From Romans 3 we see Paul making that clear: There is no one righteous, not even one, no one who seeks God.

Chrisnice said
[ QUOTE ]

What does it mean to be one of Gods select and who are they? What do you propose we do about this? You stated somewhere that you found it difficult at first to accept that God actualy hated homosexuals and not merely the sin. Why did you find this difficult? Is it because of predestination and they can not be saved? What should be done with homosexuals here on earth? Are they a lost cause who should be punished?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this question has been answered before. But to be part of the elect simply means that they are chosen in Christ. It doesn't mean that they have done anything special of themselves (like have faith), but it means that God has chosen them, and thus He works in them to have faith in their process of becoming more like Him.

I do believe that God hates homosexuals. God hates sin, and sinners (and I can defend this from Scripture). The punishment for homosexuals (and sinners, of which myself is included) has already been leveled. God has given them up to their passions (Romans 1) and their ungodly thoughts. God's punishment for our sin is to give us up to our sin.

You are correct, reformed theology goes beyond TULIP. I believe R.C. Sproul has an excellent book "What is Reformed Theology" which I would recommend if you were interested in learning more about it. For some free resources online, I suggest www.monergism.com. (http://www.monergism.com.)

Brenner Hayes wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
"spaminator101, you wrote "God chose whom he would save before the foundations of the earth. He does save some and not others. He does this to make his glory and power known to those of whom he has saved."

Please explain to me how this "glory" is shown. By your logic, let's say that I'm one of these lucky ones who was born with the "saved" Willy Wonka golden ticket already in hand. Now let's say my family members who all lead very kind altruistic lives are all born with "not saved" tickets. As one of the saved ones, I may certainly see this god as powerful, but I wouldn't find him glorious. Not in the least. I'd find him incredibly unjust and arbitrary.

[/ QUOTE ]

But now we're looking to an outside authority in order to determine what "just" and "right" is. If we trust the Bible to be true, we acknowledge God, and all He does, as our definition of justice and righteous, then there is no problem.

This also assumes that it is possible to lead "good" lives apart from God's saving grace. But we know (once again, from Scripture) that without faith it is impossible to please God.

zabt wrote

[ QUOTE ]

If God has pre-selected those that will be saved, what is the sense in missionary work or proselytizing?

[/ QUOTE ]

God has pre-selected those that will be saved, but He has also decreed that He will use some means to achieve that ends. The means He has chosen for the vast majority (Paul being one possible exception) is through preaching and evangelism (which I believe should consist of the same information, though the presentation may be different).

Hope this helps. The Christian worldview is consistant. It is merely us as humans that are inconsistant when applying things.

udontknowmickey

09-01-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

1) It's Israel.

The el is very important because it stands for Elohim if I recall correctly, and you will see many names of humans and angels in the Old Testament that have el on the end usually meaning "<something> of God".

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool! I never knew that.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Although as a Christian you believe the Calvinist view of "Predestination" it's important to note that not all Christians believe this, in fact most Christian sects don't.(that doesn't mean it is not true though, merely debateable)

It's important to remember to state what you particularly believe in regards to a faith when you are speaking to those who are of various beliefs, and not let your personal interpretation speak for an entire religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that agreement does not necessarily denote truth, but it seems silly to be all humble about something that they believe is clearly taught in Scripture. Most people don't believe in Predestination mostly because they assume otherwise, not because they are convinced by Scripture. John Wesley was an exception, but people like him are rare nowadays.

[ QUOTE ]

3) The 'Once saved, always saved' I believe is pretty much correct, however the Book of Revelations makes it pretty clear whoever accepts the Mark of the Beast is doomed. (as recieving the Mark is blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit - which is unforgiveable)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thus in order for both to be true (that once God has chosen someone, He will not lose him/her and whoever receives the mark of the beast is doomed) all those who God has chosen will not receive the mark of the beast.

[ QUOTE ]

I also am not sure if a person 'moves away from God' that they were "never saved to begin with". Christianity teaches only God knows the nature of his relationship with each individual and thus it is important not to judge others on how we see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it wrong to judge as God judges when He says in 1 John 2:19?

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

You are correct in that a relationship with God is between them and God, but that doesn't mean He hasn't spoken regarding that status.

[ QUOTE ]

Yet, from all that, the wise ones will say "I think what God is trying to say here is", and not deal in absolutes such as 'if this, then this, so that's that'. (this way of acting IMHO is what is wrong with organized religion)

[/ QUOTE ]

This amused me greatly. Do you think you are correct about what is wrong with organized religion? Shouldn't you just say that this is just your view?

jordanx

09-02-2005, 06:03 AM

This might sound like it was ripped from Pulp Fiction, but it's relevant:

It's not important whether God actually saved the woman from the flood, what is important is that she felt the touch of God.

In reality, God may or may not exist, but Christians believe He does because they feel His touch. When they look around they see His presence.

Maybe you don't believe in God now but someday you will. Some die-hard Christians might become Athiests in the future.

Christianity is a chosen perspective. It makes no difference if it is right or wrong, or if God really exists or doesn't.

It's not illogical for the woman to think God saved her in this instance because there is no definitive set of logical behavior patterns established by God. The woman also does not need to speculate about God's intentions or motives.

benkahuna

09-02-2005, 07:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When they are saved, God heard their call and responded by showing mercy on a faithful Christian. When they die, it was all part of God's greater plan and there's some significant reason he had for it. When someone else is saved, God took mercy on them anyway, and if he dies- he should have put his faith in Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely tautoligical. He has no accountability whatsoever. This master plan seems to come at a very high price in unnecessary waste and misery and humanity seems dreadfully obtuse in learning lessons from its previous experiences.

Another one I like. He only gives us as much burden as we can handle. Yeah, except for the people that have nervous breakdowns or commit suicide because they can't handle their lives.

I think humans need to believe in something, some purpose. However, I think it could be done, even if that purpose is Christian belief, without so many shallow aphorisms and notions.

Another good one: The lord helps those that helps themselves.

09-02-2005, 12:41 PM

spaminator101 & udontknowmickey,

You both say that we are already saved or not saved and that this is decided in stone and unchangable. Ok, I understand your position so far. Here's where you lose me.

You also seem to imply that it matters somehow if people spread the good word about your Jesus. Why is this again? You haven't been clear to me yet.

And make sure that you address this following question in your answer. According to you guys, today, I am certainly either saved or unsaved. I don't know which but god does and god will not change his mind. So I can either rape and pillage today, or become a missionary for Jesus, it doesn't matter in the least to the issue of if I will be saved or not. Am I understanding you correctly?

xniNja

09-02-2005, 03:01 PM

I thought I already explained my post was sardonic.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And make sure that you address this following question in your answer. According to you guys, today, I am certainly either saved or unsaved. I don't know which but god does and god will not change his mind. So I can either rape and pillage today, or become a missionary for Jesus, it doesn't matter in the least to the issue of if I will be saved or not. Am I understanding you correctly?

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty much,
You could be the worst person to ever roam the earth and later become a Christian.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You also seem to imply that it matters somehow if people spread the good word about your Jesus. Why is this again? You haven't been clear to me yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

you lost me too,
What exactly do you want an explanation of?

NotReady

09-02-2005, 05:35 PM

This is an excellent example. It is often expressed theologically as "God ordains both the ends and the means".

NotReady

09-02-2005, 05:47 PM

I live in Alexandria, Louisiana, so I haven't been watching the forum as closely as usual for obvious reasons.

I mostly accept Reformed theology, aka Calvinism. This is one very large subject which I expected we might eventually get to. I think a lot of time would be saved if people would read what's available on the net concerning predestination and free will, which is what this mostly comes down to.

Man's responsibility and God's sovereignty are the two concepts involved. The Bible affirms both unequivocally. No theologian I know of has been able to reconcile these two concepts in a way that fallen human reason can accept. I begin all thinking by accepting them, by faith. We are guilty. God is omnipotent. From these two ideas all sorts of problems for reason and logic flow.

I'm not trying to duck this issue. There are very eloquent and thoughtful books and essays by people far wiser than me that explain it as far as it can be by human beings.

The greatest theologians all agree that there is mystery here that we will not solve in this lifetime, perhaps not even throughout eternity. I view it as a difficulty in understanding the exact nature of God and the soul of man, and involves difficult concepts like the will and motivation.

I believe that no one goes to heaven who deserves it, and everyone who is condemned deserves it, that God is a just and loving God and that man can in no way save himself. Man only has meaning and free will itself only makes sense if God exists.

Whatever else anyone thinks about predestination one thing is perfectly clear from Sripture. No one is forced to sin or forced to reject the Gospel. We are responsible and guilty and only God's grace stands between us and condemnation.

Ok, flame away.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 05:57 PM

I ain't flaming.
This is exactly what I beleive.

09-02-2005, 06:04 PM

NotReady, First, I hope that all those hurricane issues around you get fixed or solved as fast as humanly possible. I'll even welcome some divine intervention if I only I thought it ever occured. I'm not trying to be a smartass. Seriously, I hope things improve there quickly.

Thanks for trying to explain things. There is one great point I think you make. Whatever it is that you believe in can not really be fully understood by humans. I agree. I am a human and I admit, I just don't understand it. So even though I think I might be banging my head against a brick wall, I'm also going to throw my next post back to Spaminator101 to see if he can elaborate.

So no flames from me. Just a simple "I don't get it."

09-02-2005, 06:15 PM

Spamintor101, let me rephrase my question. Assume I have been predetermined to be saved. Now assume that even though I have this "saved" status that is known by god, I decide to rape and pillage and nothing else for the rest of my days until I die of old age. I will still be saved, correct? This is all consistent with your beliefs, correct? Ok, so that was just question #1.

Here's question #2 - If yes is your answer to question #1, then why should I ever bother spending my time spreading the word of Jesus to any other human. Obviously, this has no bearing whatsoever on improving my chances on being saved or the other humans chances of being saved themselves as this is already set in stone. Is there some other reason I should do this according to you? I could see why I shouldn't rape and pillage as this is simply inconsiderate to my victims, but if I just want to watch MTV all day and skip the door to door knocking about Jesus, is this a cool decision according to you?

I look forward to your replies. Seriously, it's interesting for me to see how you think about these things even if we never end up agreeing on them at the end of the day.

NotReady

09-02-2005, 06:16 PM

Thanks for your concern. Knowing this could happen and seeing it are two very different things.

[ QUOTE ]

Just a simple "I don't get it."

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't feel alone. No one does that has been able to explain it. Perhaps why salvation is by faith, not intellect or works.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Assume I have been predetermined to be saved. Now assume that even though I have this "saved" status that is known by god, I decide to rape and pillage and nothing else for the rest of my days until I die of old age. I will still be saved, correct? This is all consistent with your beliefs, correct? Ok, so that was just question #1.

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all,
if you are predestined by God the you would accept him as your savior at some point in your life.

So if you are by the standards set above, truly saved then my answer is yes. However based upon your question my answer is no.

09-02-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Spamintor101, let me rephrase my question. Assume I have been predetermined to be saved. Now assume that even though I have this "saved" status that is known by god, I decide to rape and pillage and nothing else for the rest of my days until I die of old age. I will still be saved, correct? This is all consistent with your beliefs, correct? Ok, so that was just question #1.

[/ QUOTE ]If are one of the "saved" you will come around before it is too late. That's your destiny...

09-02-2005, 06:44 PM

Ok, I think your position is more clear to me now. But I do have free will, right? It is just that in some sort of thing that I can only best describe as a Sci-Fi movie type twisty plot (I'm not trying to be condescending here I'm just trying to most accurately describe something that I don't understand and admit that I don't think I'll ever get on board with) this free will of mine will enable me to "choose" god as my savior, but this choice will have already been somehow known by god because if it hadn't been known I would have never been save-eligible and therefore "saved" before I was even born in the the first place. Does this capture it fairly accurately?

Not Ready and Spaninator101 can reply if possible in case you differ for some reason. But it seems like you two are on the same page with this stuff.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 06:55 PM

Yes, you do have free will.
No, you do not choose God, He chose you. Your free will is not completely free.

God does not just know you will choose Him he decided that you would choose Him.

NotReady

09-02-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

this free will of mine will enable me to "choose" god as my savior

[/ QUOTE ]

Your will is free in the sense that you are not forced by anything outside yourself. When you choose chocolate over vanilla it is because you want chocolate. No one forces you. Concerning salavation, no one wants God by their nature. You are free to choose Him, but you won't without His grace. So you freely reject Him because you don't want Him. When He gives you the free gift of faith, through grace, you choose Him because you want to, not because you are forced.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 06:59 PM

I really like how you put that.
I wish i could get my thoughts over to someone like that.

09-02-2005, 07:39 PM

Not Ready & Spaminator101, Thanks for taking the time and effort to try to explain all this to me. I guess I understand where you stand now. I'm probably still a little sketchy on it but I think I'm close enough to understanding your position to leave it at that. If it's not too personal, would you mind explaining where and when you were exposed and decided to believe in this faith? I'll understand if you'd rather not.

Was it from your parents since birth? Did you seek this out as adults? I'm just curious. And just so that you don't think I'm trying to underhandedly get at something, I'll be upfront with you right here. I don't personally believe in this stuff, find it almost impossible to buy into and am curious what makes you and I different from each other in this regard. I'm not at all heated about this in some adversarial way or anything, though.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not Ready & Spaminator101, Thanks for taking the time and effort to try to explain all this to me. I guess I understand where you stand now. I'm probably still a little sketchy on it but I think I'm close enough to understanding your position to leave it at that. If it's not too personal, would you mind explaining where and when you were exposed and decided to believe in this faith? I'll understand if you'd rather not.

Was it from your parents since birth? Did you seek this out as adults? I'm just curious. And just so that you don't think I'm trying to underhandedly get at something, I'll be upfront with you right here. I don't personally believe in this stuff, find it almost impossible to buy into and am curious what makes you and I different from each other in this regard. I'm not at all heated about this in some adversarial way or anything, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, i was exposed to this when i was in 4th grade and started beleiving it in 6th grade. I admit I do not like this. I do not like that God just chooses who He saves, however I still beleive in it.

I beleive that people don't beleive this because they try to bend scripture to make it say what they want. Thats just my oppinion and I'm not saying that your a bad person for doing that. Oh well thats pretty much it.

NotReady

09-02-2005, 08:15 PM

When I was about 12 I told my best friend I didn't believe in God. As a good Lutheran he was properly shocked. I don't remember my reasoning at the time but probably had to do with bad explanations of Who God is. When I was between 15 and 17 I learned about predestination. This totally confirmed me in my atheism. If God elects who is saved, it doesn't matter what I do. So what most people think in reaction to this doctrine is at the level of a 17 year old with no training in philosophy.

I became a Christian when I was 22. In the interim I had come to understand something about the consequences of atheism and evolution by chance and so was perhaps moving towards a kind of pantheism. Then through a series of events I met someone who was very strong in evangelism and we had a long talk. I felt I was open minded about the subject and looking back on it I probably was because God was working on me so that I could "hear" the message. From a subjective viewpoint for me it was just a matter of curiosity, of wanting to know what this particular person had to say. As the conversation progressed I raised the issue of predestination. He didn't deny the doctrine, nor did he try to explain it. He simply emphasized the fact that I could choose to accept Christ now, and if I didn't, God would not revoke the promise and I could choose to accept Him tomorrow. Through much back and forth with him I finally understood the concept of sin and guilt and I KNEW without doubt that I was guilty and I KNEW without doubt that Christ is the answer. Later that night was when I became a Christian.

This was 30 years ago. Virtually from the day I converted I've been struggling with this doctrine of predestination. Not every day, but over the years many, many long hours. It's very, very tough but I've never questioned the truth of the doctrine, my own guilt and the love and grace of God.

Though the Bible does not give a complete explanation so that we can penetrate the logic it does consistently reaffirm the truth that God is sovereign and man is responsible. And it continually emphasizes the importance of faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". "Today, if you hear His voice...".

Predestination is salvation from God's perspective. He controls everything that happens in His universe. But He does so in a way that does not violate the will and responsibility of the creature. How this is possible is the mystery. And it's not the only one in the Bible.

You don't have to believe or understand the doctrine to be saved. You only have to entrust your soul to God, to accept what He has graciously provided. And this you MUST do. Predestination will not save you. "For by grace you have been saved through faith".

09-02-2005, 08:18 PM

Thanks for the honest reply.

As for myself, I don't try to bend the scripture to my interpretation. I consider the entire Bible to be a work of fiction. I view it probably in the exact same light as you view every organized religion except for Christianity (and the Christianity-related ones.) So I probably have the exact same belief as you about every other organized religion. We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one.

09-02-2005, 08:22 PM

While I was thanking Spaminator101, you posted your very honest reply. Thank you for that as well. I enjoyed learning about your religious journey.

spaminator101

09-02-2005, 08:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, your probably right.

David Sklansky

09-03-2005, 01:18 AM

"You don't have to believe or understand the doctrine (of predestination -my words) to be saved."

Then why not assume the opposite? Its a freeroll.

NotReady

09-03-2005, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Then why not assume the opposite? Its a freeroll

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume what? That predestination isn't true? I think there are many Christians who have some Biblical doctrines wrong, no doubt including me. But it would be arrogant to assume this when the Bible clearly teaches it. Make a thorough study of the subject then if you still reject it but truly trust Christ, you will be saved.

udontknowmickey

09-03-2005, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

No theologian I know of has been able to reconcile these two concepts in a way that fallen human reason can accept.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite in agreement here. I read all this from one person Vincent Cheung (http://www.rmiweb.org/), but he quotes from Martin Luther and John Calvin rather convincingly that the position on divine sovereignty and human responsibility are not contradictory if we discard the assumption that human responsibility presupposes freedom.

Rather, responsibility presupposes divine judgement, and divine judgement presupposes God's decision to judge. Thus we are responsible because God has chosen to judge and hold us accountable. We could be perfectly free to do whatever we wanted, but if no one was going to judge what we did, then we would not be responsible. Thus human responsibility presuposes a judge, and not just any judge, but an omnipotent and omniscent judge(because if we weren't judged for everything, we would not be completely responsible and if we couldn't be punished, then we can't be judged).

In short, I don't believe there is a contradiction in Scripture at all at this point.

More reading on this, the website I linked has a pile of free books. The Systematic Theology, Commentary on Ephesians, and Author of Sin are particularly relevent.

PS NotReady I hope home is alright for you. You have my prayers.

David Sklansky

09-03-2005, 01:25 AM

We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one."

"Yes, your probably right."

And this dialogue would occur regardless of which of the several dozens of religious beliefs the second person was a practitioner of. It constantly amazes me that this in itself doesn't give people extreme pause.

NotReady

09-03-2005, 01:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]

PS NotReady I hope home is alright for you. You have my prayers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Katrina missed us completely, not even a shower. But I've had ties in the past to N.O. and other spots that were hit hard. We lived there when I was very young and my brother was born there. Also I've spent a fair amount of time in Gulfport and Biloxi. We are getting some evacuees here as well.

udontknowmickey

09-03-2005, 01:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You also seem to imply that it matters somehow if people spread the good word about your Jesus. Why is this again? You haven't been clear to me yet.

And make sure that you address this following question in your answer. According to you guys, today, I am certainly either saved or unsaved. I don't know which but god does and god will not change his mind. So I can either rape and pillage today, or become a missionary for Jesus, it doesn't matter in the least to the issue of if I will be saved or not. Am I understanding you correctly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I fear I may alienate spaminator (and maybe NotReady) with this post, I feel he has been a little fuzzy with this question.

I deny "free will" completely in the sense that we can never be free from God's Will. If you want to call your perceived will (as in, I'm feel like I'm free to turn right or turn left) as free will, then you can do that, but realize it has no meaning because the only perspective that really matters is God's.

Thus denying free will completely, we can dispense with the "you are predestined but you're still free" statements that seem to crop up a lot on these boards. These just sound contradictory and in all honesty don't do much to show that Christianity is the only rational and logical worldview out there (which I can demonstrate that Christianity claims for itself).

Thus, to answer your question, it does matter what you do today, because God not only controls the ends (your state in eternity) but He controls the means to accomplish the ends. Thus if your state in eternity were for damnation, He would harden your heart and prepare you for destruction, you would completely reject Christ and all that He stands for. If your state in eternity were for salvation, then through your experiences (which He controls all the way) he would eventually soften your heart, replacing your heart of stone with a heart of flesh, so that you would be convicted of the sins that you commit and repent and cry out to Christ and Christ alone for salvation.

Thus you have a "choice" in the sense that you don't feel outside pressures to go one way or another, but all the while it is God choosing with you and through you. So it does matter what you do, because it is through those that God accomplishes the ends.

Hope that helps. Yes, it is my perspective, but I am thoroughly (sp?) convinced by Scripture that it is also Scripture's perspective.

sexdrugsmoney

09-03-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We both believe that they were made up by humans for various reasons. We only really differ on just one."

"Yes, your probably right."

And this dialogue would occur regardless of which of the several dozens of religious beliefs the second person was a practitioner of. It constantly amazes me that this in itself doesn't give people extreme pause.

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

If you would invest time to study Christianity, (ie- From Genesis to Revelations = 66 books) which I know for someone who is a novice to the religion like yourself is a big ask, (which you have stated you will not do also - fair enough) you would see that it is clearly explained.

But you must concede, that if you have trouble diagnosing "what a Christian is" then you have no chance of actually knowing how Christians can view other religions as 'false' and thier own as 'true'.

You can also make this case for Islam, Judaism et al, but that would require you to be familiar with their texts in turn, and as you have stated, this practice along with baseball is not on your agenda.

So from a position of ignorance about this subject (I in no way mean ignorance in the negative BTW) can you really be suprised you don't grasp the concept?

Cheers,
SDM

Alex/Mugaaz

09-03-2005, 01:47 AM

This is not true, for the same reason people don't need to read books on craps betting strategy before knowing it doesn't work.

NotReady

09-03-2005, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Though I fear I may alienate spaminator (and maybe NotReady) with this post,

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't alienate me. And I admit to fuzziness here. The Bible is very clear about two concepts but it does not clearly reconcile the two concepts. Thus I think the Bible itself is fuzzy,or more accurately, silent, and intentionally so. I hesitate to go beyond Biblical language on this issue, primarily because I don't think human logic can make an explanation that the Bible itself omits.

I'm familiar with much of the speculation that has been done in this area. I find it all interesting, some of it helpful, but none of it authoritative.

For instance, you "deny free will completely". I don't make this statement, in part because I don't really understand what free will means. Some Calvinists accept the term and then define it. I just think completely denying it is further than I'm willing to go.

I'm willing to discuss all the aspects of predestination but I'm only willing to be dogmatic about what is clear from Scripture.

sexdrugsmoney

09-03-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not true, for the same reason people don't need to read books on craps betting strategy before knowing it doesn't work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tut tut my friend, you example is flawed.

With the game of craps we can observe all aspects of the game, from value to physics of play, the board it is played on, mathematics, and unambigious rules of play.

With the game of life, we don't know as much.

We know it's a gamble, with more possiblities than that of a pair of dice. There are a plethora of values and no clear rulebook other that that created by other players of the game who are the side of the table in the 'Government/legislation' section.

We see the table (earth) from many sides, and know this table is in a casino (universe), yet we cannot explore any other games and don't know if there are any other patrons in the casino who play different games.

We also know not who the casino owner is, though many theories abound.

In short, while one can look at Craps and say "Don't play", the decision to play has been decided for us by our parents when we entered the world and now must place our bet where we can best guess the +EV bet is on the table.

Craps,
SDM

sexdrugsmoney

09-03-2005, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to discuss all the aspects of predestination but I'm only willing to be dogmatic about what is clear from Scripture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be dogmatic about nothing mi amigo.

If there's anything we can learn from Sklansky's dog posts is that the "dog always gets it". /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cheers,
SDM

NotReady

09-03-2005, 02:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If there's anything we can learn from Sklansky's dog posts is that the "dog always gets it".

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Alex/Mugaaz

09-03-2005, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not true, for the same reason people don't need to read books on craps betting strategy before knowing it doesn't work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tut tut my friend, you example is flawed.

With the game of craps we can observe all aspects of the game, from value to physics of play, the board it is played on, mathematics, and unambigious rules of play.

With the game of life, we don't know as much.

We know it's a gamble, with more possiblities than that of a pair of dice. There are a plethora of values and no clear rulebook other that that created by other players of the game who are the side of the table in the 'Government/legislation' section.

We see the table (earth) from many sides, and know this table is in a casino (universe), yet we cannot explore any other games and don't know if there are any other patrons in the casino who play different games.

We also know not who the casino owner is, though many theories abound.

In short, while one can look at Craps and say "Don't play", the decision to play has been decided for us by our parents when we entered the world and now must place our bet where we can best guess the +EV bet is on the table.

Craps,
SDM

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I used to be like you I'll reply the following. Re-write this post, except try to debate the opposite side, and try as hard as you can, using the same examples(if possible).

sexdrugsmoney

09-03-2005, 03:06 AM

Can you get me started?

Cheers,
SDM

malorum

09-05-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth should this be true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bible

09-05-2005, 08:16 PM

udontknowmickey, thanks for trying to clear things up for me but I have to admit that I'm still confused by this, but maybe it's just me. Your valient effort may have cleared things up for others though so it's all good. I just don't think I'll ever understand any fuzzy line between the notion that god supposedly has my destiny sewn up beforehand but what I do matters in some way to the determination of my destiny. Or the line between the notion that I'll be judged by what I do and the idea that god already knows what i'm going to do, which to me means that I don't have free will. In all honesty, I admit that I haven't taken the time and effort to study and deeply think about all the nuances and twists and turns on this free will issue. I'll also admit that I personally see enough illogical thinking related to much of organized religious thinking that I do not have the motivation to ever try to understand some of this stuff if it requires significant effort on my part as I feel I would be trying to grasp one aspect of a religion that I already have many other differences of opinion on. Therefore I would likely never convert even if I came to the point where some of these differences vanished for me. Just my personal belief.