Great way to destroy your table image

[gol4pro]

No real reads, under than guy to my left is a donk.

2/4 FL, full ring.

I'm UTG+1 with J /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif.

UTG limps, I raise, UTG+2 Cold calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Pot 8SB
Flop A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
-- I bet expecting donk to fold (limp with like Jx/Qx), donk raises, both fold, I call

Pot 6BB
turn 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif
-- I check, donk bets, I raise, donk calls

Pot 10BB
River 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
--I bet, donk calls

Donk mucks.

And the flaming begins....

[weevil]

This seems like a fairly bad raise PF, unless everyone after you is really tight and UTG limps a wide range. Even then..

Your flop description makes no sense. Did everyone fold to you bet then he cr'd? Rest is fine is this is what happened, otherwise if he bet and you raised the flop, bet the turn.

[Nick Royale]

Limp preflop, the raise is pretty terrible.

[ErrantNight]

disagree wholeheartedly. i wouldn't call it standard, but it's in a deep, vast, realm of a wholelotta NOT terrible.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
disagree wholeheartedly. i wouldn't call it standard, but it's in a deep, vast, realm of a wholelotta NOT terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without any reads on the limper (or the rest of the field), raising JTs in UTG+1 with 7 players yet to act feels pretty terrible to me. Sure, JTs is a nice hand and raising might be +EV, but limping must be more +EV on average in this situation. It's like limping AA, it's not -EV, but raising is a much better play. To deviate you need solid reads.

I hate all exaggerations on this forum, but I felt raising here was pretty terrible. You have to explain to me why it's not.

[ErrantNight]

i just don't think an isolation play with JTs is terrible, even up front, on this table. i wouldn't go so far as to recommend it, but if you're getting donks to cold-call behind you as well, you're fine if you're close to headsup, or fine if the pot is huge and there's many to the flop. presuming you can outplay your opponent headsup since you don't have a hand that wants to see a showdown unimproved.

my biggest objection is that you presumably have a donk to your left that will come along, and perhaps set off a limpfest.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
i just don't think an isolation play with JTs is terrible, even up front, on this table.

[/ QUOTE ]
JTs is by nature not a great hand for isolation (as you say, no showdown value UI). To isolate an unknown UTG limper with this not so great isolation hand with 6 unknown players and one donk yet to act must be... pretty terrible. I don't know what table read you're talking about, we have a read on 1 player.

[ QUOTE ]
but if you're getting donks to cold-call behind you as well, you're fine if you're close to headsup

[/ QUOTE ]
To play this hand 3-4 ways OOP will not be easy at all, I find it hard to see how we will manage to outplay the opposition and even if we are I see no reason to put ourselves in this position. Paying double bets to see a flop 3-4 ways OOP with this hand is the last thing we want, but by raising that's often what we accomplish.

As a definition of what I ment by "pretty terrible":
Choosing one play when another play is obviously better. It doesn't have to be -EV. Calling a raise on the river with the nuts isn't -EV, but it's terrible.

[ErrantNight]

as a variance play to alter your image under these table conditions... i disagree. folding would be terrible.

raising may be sub-optimal, but it might be alright. if raising QJs or QTs would be alright here, then raising JTs can't be terrible for a modicum of high card strength lost.

all this said... i'm still limping here the majority of the time. but as long as hero doesn't view this as standard... whatever.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm still limping here the majority of the time. but as long as hero doesn't view this as standard... whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SoSo]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a fairly bad raise PF, unless everyone after you is really tight and UTG limps a wide range. Even then.

[/ QUOTE ]

its actually the opposite of this he wants a load of loose players infront of him creating a large multiway pot with the best drawing hand in the game.

This is actually a really good move at a loose table advocated by Prof Feeney.

[jskills]

I just call preflop, but whatever.

I don't understand the river at all. Did he call or muck?

Also, how does this hurt your table image? Because you won the hand and had to show it?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
its actually the opposite of this he wants a load of loose players infront of him creating a large multiway pot with the best drawing hand in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
In general I think weevil is correct. Raising here is most often to isolate, but if the is very loose you might have a point.

[SoSo]

Your mis reading this hand its not an isolation play, but an attempt to create a large multiway pot with a fantastic drawing hand.

At a loose table where 6-7 to a flop is common this is a great move known as "raising early for value"

You Should all buy a copy of "Insider the Poker Mind" because clearly none of you have read it.

[SoSo]

[ QUOTE ]
In general I think weevil is correct. Raising here is most often to isolate, but if the is very loose you Might have a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

theres no might about it, i'm right.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
At a loose table where 6-7 to a flop is common this is a great move known as "raising early for value"

[/ QUOTE ]
And where did you find this table read?

[ QUOTE ]
You Should all buy a copy of "Insider the Poker Mind" because clearly none of you have read it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm planning to...

[Nick Royale]

Try to adapt your new found knowledge to the actual table you're playing at.

If the table is very loose (as you say 6-7 players to the flop EVEN if raised and forced to call 2 cold) a raise is correct. But you won't find many of these tables and there's no indication this is one of them.

[SoSo]

You don't find many loose tables at 2/4?? What planet do u play on.

[SoSo]

N.B its not actually gotta be hat many players around 4-5 coming in for 2 bets will give u great drawing odds, which is sort of the point of the play.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't find many loose tables at 2/4?? What planet do u play on.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you raise from UTG+1 expecting to get 6-7 way action to the flop? If you are on a 2/4-table without any reads you'll get disappointed 99 times in 100.

[SoSo]

*** You are ignoring this user ***

thanks for the input!

[Piiop]

SoSo, please refrain from posting until you are no longer an ass. Almost everything you said in this thread is retardo.


That said, the actual hand is not very special. Postflop is standard and preflop isn't that bad.

[SoSo]

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Thanks for the input.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

thanks for the input!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good job ignoring people who are correct.

At an average party 2/4 table, raising from UTG+1 w/1 limper on will get you no more than 4 people to the flop on average (which is what he got here). Obviously you would MUCH rather play your JTs in a 6-7way limped pot than a 4way raised pot. Raise this from the button in a 7way limped pot if you want, but unless you know the table is ridiculously loose, this is awful.

Good job misapplying good advice from a book though! And great job ignoring people with worthwhile opinions, while spouting off your misapplied advice as absolute truth!

jvs

[SoSo]

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3280925&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

Typo,

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3280925&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

Typo,

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think it's more +EV to play JTs in a raised 4way pot than an unraised 7way pot, you are incorrect.

jvs

[SoSo]

i litterally can not be bothered with this post ne more.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm wrong and don't want to admit it, so I'm going to stop arguing

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[mar]

Well, I agree with the people argumenting for just limping this hand from that position, not many 2/4 tables I play will get many callers after a UG-limp and a UG+1 raise,
But if you are pretty confindent you will get many callers, good for you, nice table.

If not raising preflop, do you guys just check this flop hoping for a possibility to make this a big pot. Someone else must have liked this flop, or are you to scared it will be checked all the way?

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]

If not raising preflop, do you guys just check this flop hoping for a possibility to make this a big pot. Someone else must have liked this flop, or are you to scared it will be checked all the way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get how checking this flop makes a bigger pot than betting it? Unless you are planning on checkraising the flop on a pure draw?

jvs

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get how checking this flop makes a bigger pot than betting it? Unless you are planning on checkraising the flop on a pure draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you check the flop, then check/raising will often be correct after a bet. But I would just bet out.

[mar]

yes of course, hoping to catch 3 or more people. That of cource if we have enough players in the pot already, otherwise its a bet.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

my biggest objection is that you presumably have a donk to your left that will come along, and perhaps set off a limpfest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with above, but will also add, that if (and it doesn't sound like it's the case) the table is terribly tight and you don't get action on your good hands, i like the raise here.

Had the hand not gone my way, i'd make it apoint to show my cards.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Had the hand not gone my way, i'd make it apoint to show my cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't we overestimating the opponents here?

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Had the hand not gone my way, i'd make it apoint to show my cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't we overestimating the opposition here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so.

I believe most people are going to see that JTs isn't a "typical" raising hand. If they were folding hands like KJ, KT, QJ, etc before to my raises when I hold premium hands - they may decide to look me up.

However, it is totally table dependant, and I wouldn't sit down and start immediately raising JTs etc.

....and more often than not, it will be better just to leave the table.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[ErrantNight]

aren't we all agreed that limping JTs is standard, raising is ok under the proper circumstances? if we are... then conceivably we aren't doing it in circumstances where we're convinced all our opponent are unthinking donks. unless you always play against all your opponents like they're unthinking donks... in which case you come up with silly ultimatums about the terribleness of raising JTs from early position. in which case... aren't you being a lil black and white about things?

more likely... this is really trivial matter because we've got a hand with little to no reads, and little to no interesting poker discussion.

next.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
aren't we all agreed that limping JTs is standard, raising is ok under the proper circumstances? if we are... then conceivably we aren't doing it in circumstances where we're convinced all our opponent are unthinking donks. unless you always play against all your opponents like they're unthinking donks... in which case you come up with silly ultimatums about the terribleness of raising JTs from early position.

[/ QUOTE ]
In general I think showing down I hand at 2/4 just because of showing you've been raising light is bad poker. If you find a table with only thinking players then I can see the point, but then again you should switch table. I always reply to posts with an answer I consider standard and in this case I think showing down hands to be deceptive is very far from standard. There are always certain circumstances causing us to deviate from what's standard, which would mean there's rarely any incorrect answers. Am I wrong answering to posts only using the information given? I think if you suggest an alternative line to what's standard you should point out what these circumstances are.

[ QUOTE ]
more likely... this is really trivial matter because we've got a hand with little to no reads, and little to no interesting poker discussion.

next.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the bump then. Your comments are apreciated, since you're a great poster, but if you feel you're WAY above the discussion you don't HAVE to give them.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate all exaggerations on this forum

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my favorite quote of the day.

[ErrantNight]

i didn't mean to be entirely flippant... i'll pm my last thoughts on this some time tonight when i get back from work... peace