Is this a good plan? Staking a friend, want suggestions

[w_alloy]

I have a friend who was recently moaning about getting a job while in college to pay for skiing. He plays poker rarely and casually, but he is smart, even-tempered, and honest with himself. He has read most of HPAFP casually and understands the concepts. He has also spent a few hours watching me 4 table 5/10 6m and when I asked him what he should do he gave gernerally sound strategy. I think he could be a very good poker player.

However, he doesnt have any money to start (he has all living expenses and college payed for but not much else). His computer is an oldish apple. He needs to be making money by december.

To me this sounds like a perfect opportunity for me to stake him. We grew up together and trust is not an issue. Additionally, I do not know any poker players (besides poor casual ones). TPT is obviously a great venue for everything, but I think it would be nice to have someone who I can talk to outside of the internet about hands, swings, limits, etc. My current bankroll can support staking him.

He said he would be very interested if I made him an offer. As you cant really do internet poker properly on a mac, I also need to buy him a computer (sans moniter).

Any suggestions? Obviously, since he needs to start winning soon, reading HPAFP, SSH, and this forum will be an integral part of the plan. However, i dont want to make him do anything for x amount of time. I can also start him out at any limit and need to decide whether he should play short or full.

My current plan would go something like me buying him a computer for around 600, giving him 500 for an initial BR. I would have him pay me 5% of the money he has over the initial BR every week. Once he builds his BR to 2500 (a good BR for 3/6 6m), he does not have to pay interest anymore and starts paying me back. However, he only has to pay me back 900 instead of the 1100 (this number can be adjusted based on comp cost). This deduction is because my goal is not to make money off him but to help a friend. I will prolly make money, but the primary goal of the interest is to motivate him to play a lot untill he gets to profitable levels.

With his 500 Br, we would play .5/1 6m limit for 200 BBs. At this point he moves to 1/26m. He stays there untill he gets to 1200, when he moves to 2/4 full. He plays this untill he gets to 1800, and then moves to 3/6 6m. I will set loss limits at 250BB for any limit. I will watch him play for at least an hour a week and we will go over eachother's hands and comment on them for 15-30 minutes every day. I will learn from this too. He will start playing 2 tables add them as he sees fit.

Problems: 6m limit is very very swingy, which is a huge problem. But it seems like the softest games out there right now. I also think 5/10 6m is the easiest game to beat for a largish amount, and its better to make the switch to short sooner then later. I thought about having him play full, but 3/6 and 5/10 seem so much tougher and slower then their 6m counterparts. I also thought about having him play NL, but then my coaching would be much much less important, and also the selfish reason of wanting a friend who plays my game.

I went back and forth about adding the 2/4 full step in there, but I think its important he learns full strategy. The biggest adjustments will be pre-flop, and this he will pick up quickly. I also think 2/4 full isnt that hard to 4 table, and this will be good practice. The BR jump from 1/2 to 3/6 would also be hard without 2/4.

Another thing i considered was having him start at a higher limit. I thought about giving him a possibly replenishing bankroll of 500 and starting him at 2/4 full (after maybe a few days of coaching at 1/2 full). His move would then be down to 1/2 6m for a while then up to 3/6 6m. Starting him with a larger BR is also a possibility. With around 20 hours a week, do you think its reasonably that he could get to the established goal by december with the current plan?

I am completely open to suggestions about radicaly different types of staking.

Thoughts, comments, and suggestions greatly apprecciated!

[w_alloy]

Maybe the post is a bit long, but I wanted to get all the info across so advice would be well informed. Anyways, bump in the mornin'.

[Reef]

when it comes to friends and $, I think standard play is don't loan an amount you would miss more than them.

this could be a good investment though.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who was recently moaning about getting a job while in college to pay for skiing. He plays poker rarely and casually, but he is smart, even-tempered, and honest with himself. He has read most of HPAFP casually and understands the concepts. He has also spent a few hours watching me 4 table 5/10 6m and when I asked him what he should do he gave gernerally sound strategy. I think he could be a very good poker player.

However, he doesnt have any money to start (he has all living expenses and college payed for but not much else). His computer is an oldish apple. He needs to be making money by december.

To me this sounds like a perfect opportunity for me to stake him. We grew up together and trust is not an issue. Additionally, I do not know any poker players (besides poor casual ones). TPT is obviously a great venue for everything, but I think it would be nice to have someone who I can talk to outside of the internet about hands, swings, limits, etc. My current bankroll can support staking him.

He said he would be very interested if I made him an offer. As you cant really do internet poker properly on a mac, I also need to buy him a computer (sans moniter).

Any suggestions? Obviously, since he needs to start winning soon, reading HPAFP, SSH, and this forum will be an integral part of the plan. However, i dont want to make him do anything for x amount of time. I can also start him out at any limit and need to decide whether he should play short or full.

My current plan would go something like me buying him a computer for around 600, giving him 500 for an initial BR. I would have him pay me 5% of the money he has over the initial BR every week. Once he builds his BR to 2500 (a good BR for 3/6 6m), he does not have to pay interest anymore and starts paying me back. However, he only has to pay me back 900 instead of the 1100 (this number can be adjusted based on comp cost). This deduction is because my goal is not to make money off him but to help a friend. I will prolly make money, but the primary goal of the interest is to motivate him to play a lot untill he gets to profitable levels.

With his 500 Br, we would play .5/1 6m limit for 200 BBs. At this point he moves to 1/26m. He stays there untill he gets to 1200, when he moves to 2/4 full. He plays this untill he gets to 1800, and then moves to 3/6 6m. I will set loss limits at 250BB for any limit. I will watch him play for at least an hour a week and we will go over eachother's hands and comment on them for 15-30 minutes every day. I will learn from this too. He will start playing 2 tables add them as he sees fit.

Problems: 6m limit is very very swingy, which is a huge problem. But it seems like the softest games out there right now. I also think 5/10 6m is the easiest game to beat for a largish amount, and its better to make the switch to short sooner then later. I thought about having him play full, but 3/6 and 5/10 seem so much tougher and slower then their 6m counterparts. I also thought about having him play NL, but then my coaching would be much much less important, and also the selfish reason of wanting a friend who plays my game.

I went back and forth about adding the 2/4 full step in there, but I think its important he learns full strategy. The biggest adjustments will be pre-flop, and this he will pick up quickly. I also think 2/4 full isnt that hard to 4 table, and this will be good practice. The BR jump from 1/2 to 3/6 would also be hard without 2/4.

Another thing i considered was having him start at a higher limit. I thought about giving him a possibly replenishing bankroll of 500 and starting him at 2/4 full (after maybe a few days of coaching at 1/2 full). His move would then be down to 1/2 6m for a while then up to 3/6 6m. Starting him with a larger BR is also a possibility. With around 20 hours a week, do you think its reasonably that he could get to the established goal by december with the current plan?

I am completely open to suggestions about radicaly different types of staking.

Thoughts, comments, and suggestions greatly apprecciated!

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't do this unless I were fully prepared to lose the money you're putting up and it wouldn't hurt to do so.

Quite frankly, that he's smart, even tempered, and seems to understand basic strategy concepts is no indication at all of whether he's likely to become a winning poker player.

The learning curve in poker is a bitch, and a lot of bright people can't master it.

He's a person who plays rarely and you guys figure he can just sit down with the idea that in 3 months he'll be able to play poker in the place of a part time job and this doesn't seem like a high risk proposition to you?

I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying you are approaching this with a very optimistic viewpoint.

If he loses everything, how does it affect your friendship?


--Zetack

[Matt24]

I only read the first paragraph of your post, but here is what I would do. Sign him up for rakeback and you will earn all rakeback through life of the deal. Start him at 1-2 or whatever you feel comfortable with. This is what I do, and the rakeback I get is pretty significant and definately makes it plus EV. Then go 50/50 with profits.

[spamuell]

It seems weird to charge him interest but also say you're not doing it to make money so he doesn't need to pay you back the full amount.

[w_alloy]

Thanks for the replies, some clarifactions, answers, and comments:

I should have stated how strong our frienship is more clearly, we will continue to be friends if he loses everything without much of a problem. I can also afford to lose the money, although losing 1k for a college kid (who's parents arent paying for anything) would suck. But i can def. afford it.

To spamuell, the interest is more of a motivating factor then anything. If he gets to 3/6 6m then has to move down because of bad luck or w/e, I want him to feel like the juice is running the whole time and he needs to get back on track. If you think I should discount more (it is fair I get some reward for my invsesment but not much), or you can find a better way to motivate (I'm sure he will be fine normally, but do not discount how much downswings can make someone wanna quit).

To matt24, you really shouldnt post without reading a thread. Your post is also confusing, although I am not sure I want you to clarify.

About the possibility that he won't be good, I think you guys are way way overstating this. With proper guidance (this is sososo important), I dont see how someone with reasonable intelligence could lose at this game, let alone someone who is probably upper 95-99 and is very well adjusted. Smart people who dont get poker either start out wrong, never get the proper guidance, or are too arrogant to examine their game objectively. Do you really think there is a big risk he cant turn into a winning player?

[Matt24]

[ QUOTE ]



To matt24, you really shouldnt post without reading a thread. Your post is also confusing, although I am not sure I want you to clarify.



[/ QUOTE ]

sorry man, I'll stay out of your posts from now on. Just trying to help in an area i have EXPERIENCE in and have done well with.

btw, my post isnt confusing

[utmt40]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



To matt24, you really shouldnt post without reading a thread. Your post is also confusing, although I am not sure I want you to clarify.



[/ QUOTE ]

sorry man, I'll stay out of your posts from now on. Just trying to help in an area i have EXPERIENCE in and have done well with.

btw, my post isnt confusing

[/ QUOTE ]

What a douche... /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Matt24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



To matt24, you really shouldnt post without reading a thread. Your post is also confusing, although I am not sure I want you to clarify.



[/ QUOTE ]

sorry man, I'll stay out of your posts from now on. Just trying to help in an area i have EXPERIENCE in and have done well with.

btw, my post isnt confusing

[/ QUOTE ]

What a douche... /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

me?

[w_alloy]

I would love it if you respond to my posts as long as you read them. Especially if you have expierience. I will go through your post and tell you what I found confusing.

[ QUOTE ]
Sign him up for rakeback and you will earn all rakeback through life of the deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you mean I dont sponser his rakeback, but take all of it. Your wording is a bit ambiguous. Anyways, this is not a bad idea but is only a start.

[ QUOTE ]
Then go 50/50 with profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only other thing of content you say. This is extremely ambiguous. If I take half his profits and all his rakeback, this will crpple his winnings. Also, the time interval I take his "profits" is extremely important. If, for example, it is weekly would I also pay half if he has a losing week? What if he is up 600 one week then down 300 then up 200 in 3 weeks. Assuming we do nothing on a losing week, then I'm actually taking 7/8s of his profit plus rakeback which is absurd. If you take a very long term approach to "profits" this is still a very crippling deal.

You dont even address some of the more important things like BR, which games to play, player development, and buying him a computer, for example.

[Matt24]

I have never taken money out of my players' bankrolls. I just let it ride, we both just keep reinvesting until he gets up to where he is making some good money that we can actually split up. I don't have any players making good money with the actual poker yet.

With the rakeback, yes you should get all of the rakeback, that way you are getting a good return on your money with him just breaking even. For example, I put $1000 into one players bankroll to multitable 1-2. He earned over 200 rakeback in his first month while breaking even in the games. I made 20% on my money for that month. If you want, you can kick some of this back, I do.

[w_alloy]

You missed the fact that my goal is not to make money...

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
You missed the fact that my goal is not to make money...

[/ QUOTE ]

well, you might as well take free $ if the opportunity arises (i.e. rakeback)

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
well, you might as well take free $ if the opportunity arises (i.e. rakeback)

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not free money, anything i take from his playing is comming from his br. There are lots of ways I could take money from him, this is one. Did you read the original post?

Hey,

The rakeback is a great idea. That way you are going to get some of the money back without hurting your friends bankroll. Taking money out of a bankroll under 10k is just not a great idea. I know 6K is supposed to be enough for 5-10, but what about moving up. I also keep way more than 500BB in my account relative to my level of play.

What is of concern to me is your general attitude that the game is soooo easy almost anyone can do it. It sounds like you are have a good bit of success, but the ability to win over the long term is a razor sharp line. I have compared it to putting your hand on a sharp knife. If the angle is just right it won't cut you. IF you slip one way or the other you get hurt bad.

Be very careful with your bankroll and be willing to accept losing the money you give to the friend. I have a friend who we have helped each other in the past. It has never hurt our friendship one bit even when we are into each other for 1000s.

Setup the rake back / Give him the money / accept loosing it / help him as much as possible / have him start at a very low level for as much experience as possible (1/2 is a decent starting point)

Brett

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
What is of concern to me is your general attitude that the game is soooo easy almost anyone can do it. It sounds like you are have a good bit of success, but the ability to win over the long term is a razor sharp line. I have compared it to putting your hand on a sharp knife. If the angle is just right it won't cut you. IF you slip one way or the other you get hurt bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would compare it to taking an advanced chemistry final. Two Plus Two and their books are the class and textbooks. Most people straight up take the test without prep, which is suicide. A lot of people skim through the books, and skip class. Many others dont pay attention in class and have a hard time remember everything in the books. Still others try their heart out but suck at chemisty. The last group is relatively small, but it is not a matter of luck getting into this group.

Variance plays a big part on the test, but not an overwhelming part.

Edit: I am leaning toward rakeback instead of a % now.

[tripdad]

i too staked a friend(though not as close a friend as this guy is to you).

i bought him a computer, router, p-tracker and gave him a 2K bankroll for a total investment of 3K. the deal was that he had to pay me 20% of his monthly winnings until i was paid back 120% of my investment. plus, i signed him up under my affiliate account, and i kept all "rakeback" until i was paid in full.

i was paid in full after 3 months, and made around $1800 i think (you can search for my post about it in this forumn about 5 months or so ago).***went ahead and posted a link to my post for you***
my staking post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=2395486&Foru m=,,f2,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Main=1968093 &Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=7294&daterange=1&n ewerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post2395486)

cheers!

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]

About the possibility that he won't be good, I think you guys are way way overstating this. With proper guidance (this is sososo important), I dont see how someone with reasonable intelligence could lose at this game, let alone someone who is probably upper 95-99 and is very well adjusted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, I needed a good laugh. Thanks. Look, I don't think winning at poker is an impossible task, obviously. But I do think its possible for intelligent, thoughtful, people with guidance and poker books to not get it. Particularly to not get to the point in three months of making better money than at a part time job.

Application of theory is not as straightforward as you seem to think, at least as I recall from my learning days. A lot of things come with experience, and for some people the gray areas never become clear. And you can't really expect a newbie to sit down and start cranking out 20k hands a month to get quickly experienced.

Look, I'm not saying your friend won't be a significant winner (and by significant I mean enough of one to make this whole excersize worthwhile) or even that its more likely than not that he won't be a significant winner. But if you said, hey, I'm ninety percent sure he'll be a significant winner I'd think that was a ludicrous statement.

So its not that I don't think this will work, its just that you seem inordinately confident that it will.

--Zetack

[w_alloy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh, I needed a good laugh. Thanks. Look, I don't think winning at poker is an impossible task, obviously. But I do think its possible for intelligent, thoughtful, people with guidance and poker books to not get it. Particularly to not get to the point in three months of making better money than at a part time job.

Application of theory is not as straightforward as you seem to think, at least as I recall from my learning days. A lot of things come with experience, and for some people the gray areas never become clear. And you can't really expect a newbie to sit down and start cranking out 20k hands a month to get quickly experienced.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definantly respect your viewpoint, which seems to be shared by the majority of posters here. I disagree with it and wish to discuss this further.

I think a better analogy then the chemistry test one I gave above is that of high level athletics. While it certainly requires a high aptitude and lots of pratcise, poker is not very exclusive and it is very predictable (as long as you have a very detailed knoweledge of said person's psychology and abilities) who will succeed and fail. Even moreso than in athletics, coaching, atmosphere, and attitude are the most important factors in continued development in poker.

I will admit many advanced concepts are hard to apply to play, especially while multitabling as a beginner. But as long as the right approach is taken, anyone with well above average intelligence will understand them in a relitively short period of time, and will be able to apply them in games with practice (I do not think 20k hands/month is unreasonable for a motivated college student, and this is enough to get most concepts in a situation as described above).

I think a lot of the randomness and difficulty most people think are inherent in becoming a succesfull poker player can be attributed to poor starts and poor attitudes. People see many others fail but dont realize the hidden mistakes which were avoidable that were made. Maybe they see the mistakes and think they were unavoidable. I think with help they are pretty much all avoidable, and without making these mistakes (as long as you already have in place the things we have already discussed) it is hard to fail in low limit poker.

A very very small percantage of players are strictly guided and well read from the start; endoctrined with crucial ideas such as BR management, feeling neutral to suckouts, and handling downswings. I think a very high percentage of players who get this start and have a modest amount of aptitude succeed.

Just fyi, Im not trying to push myself off as a great coach. However, I did have a very uneducated and rocky start (like most people on here) and know the mistakes beginners can make. My technical abilities are not great, but they are certainly good enough to steer a beginner in the right direction.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I agree with your thoughts that an intelligent, logical person has the ability to pick up poker in a very short amount of time and become a winning player. The strategies are not so complex that they should confuse someone of moderate to high intelligence. What I think many of the posters here are cautioning is that there is a risk that your $1100 will be lost completely and the only thing left will be the computer and your friendship - with additional risk that the only thing left at the end might actually be the computer.

If your friend has a little bit of poker playing experience under his belt then you might be taking a little less of a risk, but not by much. If you would like to relate me somewhat to your friend, I've only been playing a few short months and in that time I've become what I consider to be a very strong beginner ready to start working my way up through the stakes. It is possible that your friend could do the same, but always keep in mind the possibility that he may not successful from the start.

I would also caution you in telling your friend that he can instantly jump into playing poker in lieu of working and expect to sustain himself right away. When I first started it took a lot of trial and error before I started to get the right strategies. It wasn't until I had thoroughly read and RE-read through about 4 or 5 books, and spent some time reading the TPT forums AND spent time talking to someone who has become a mentor of sorts that I had a strong enough grasp to consider myself a winning player. Up until that point it was very much a rollercoaster ride. Your friend has an advantage from the start in that he can pull from your knowledge and experience.

I think these are the things that most posters are warning about, and not that your friend has no chance of becoming a winning poker player. I'm sure your thinking is that if you can do it, so can he. There's only one way to be sure.

What this all boils down to is this. If this is truly a friend of yours and you want to help make him a winning poker player that's a great and admirable thing. All of us should be so lucky to have a friend willing to help out like that. As often happens, however, business arrangements between friends can ruin the friendship completely so be sure that you are both on the same page and in agreement on terms before doing anything. From there it sounds like you have a sound plan to get him started.

Best of luck to both of you.

[IbrakeFORrivers]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who was recently moaning about getting a job while in college to pay for skiing. He plays poker rarely and casually, but he is smart, even-tempered, and honest with himself. He has read most of HPAFP casually and understands the concepts. He has also spent a few hours watching me 4 table 5/10 6m and when I asked him what he should do he gave gernerally sound strategy. I think he could be a very good poker player.

However, he doesnt have any money to start (he has all living expenses and college payed for but not much else). His computer is an oldish apple. He needs to be making money by december.

To me this sounds like a perfect opportunity for me to stake him. We grew up together and trust is not an issue. Additionally, I do not know any poker players (besides poor casual ones). TPT is obviously a great venue for everything, but I think it would be nice to have someone who I can talk to outside of the internet about hands, swings, limits, etc. My current bankroll can support staking him.

He said he would be very interested if I made him an offer. As you cant really do internet poker properly on a mac, I also need to buy him a computer (sans moniter).

Any suggestions? Obviously, since he needs to start winning soon, reading HPAFP, SSH, and this forum will be an integral part of the plan. However, i dont want to make him do anything for x amount of time. I can also start him out at any limit and need to decide whether he should play short or full.

My current plan would go something like me buying him a computer for around 600, giving him 500 for an initial BR. I would have him pay me 5% of the money he has over the initial BR every week. Once he builds his BR to 2500 (a good BR for 3/6 6m), he does not have to pay interest anymore and starts paying me back. However, he only has to pay me back 900 instead of the 1100 (this number can be adjusted based on comp cost). This deduction is because my goal is not to make money off him but to help a friend. I will prolly make money, but the primary goal of the interest is to motivate him to play a lot untill he gets to profitable levels.

With his 500 Br, we would play .5/1 6m limit for 200 BBs. At this point he moves to 1/26m. He stays there untill he gets to 1200, when he moves to 2/4 full. He plays this untill he gets to 1800, and then moves to 3/6 6m. I will set loss limits at 250BB for any limit. I will watch him play for at least an hour a week and we will go over eachother's hands and comment on them for 15-30 minutes every day. I will learn from this too. He will start playing 2 tables add them as he sees fit.

Problems: 6m limit is very very swingy, which is a huge problem. But it seems like the softest games out there right now. I also think 5/10 6m is the easiest game to beat for a largish amount, and its better to make the switch to short sooner then later. I thought about having him play full, but 3/6 and 5/10 seem so much tougher and slower then their 6m counterparts. I also thought about having him play NL, but then my coaching would be much much less important, and also the selfish reason of wanting a friend who plays my game.

I went back and forth about adding the 2/4 full step in there, but I think its important he learns full strategy. The biggest adjustments will be pre-flop, and this he will pick up quickly. I also think 2/4 full isnt that hard to 4 table, and this will be good practice. The BR jump from 1/2 to 3/6 would also be hard without 2/4.

Another thing i considered was having him start at a higher limit. I thought about giving him a possibly replenishing bankroll of 500 and starting him at 2/4 full (after maybe a few days of coaching at 1/2 full). His move would then be down to 1/2 6m for a while then up to 3/6 6m. Starting him with a larger BR is also a possibility. With around 20 hours a week, do you think its reasonably that he could get to the established goal by december with the current plan?

I am completely open to suggestions about radicaly different types of staking.

Thoughts, comments, and suggestions greatly apprecciated!

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds fun.

I think the other members ascertained the risks for you.

Like they suggested, I second their warnings to not let the money get in the way of your friendship.

An interesting thing I noticed. The way things are being set up, it is sort of like you are his "boss".

Just a warning, it probably will be hard to fathom, but the player you're staking probably will want some "alone time". No one likes a "back-seat-driver-player." lol... if you get my analogy... In other words, you'll probably have to exhibit self-control enough to let him be for like months at a time and TRUST that he's winning/losing and properly accounting for his wins/losses. Get my drift sorta? That's why I think everyone is emphasizing that you 2 are friends outside of the poker felt and can talk about other things besides how his games are going. I'm sure he'll want some diversion too from the daily grind he's about to incorporate.

It's hard, and like I said, this sounds fun, and NICE. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good luck man... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Punker]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who was recently moaning about getting a job

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think 20k hands/month is unreasonable for a motivated college student

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone who is "motivated" isn't really the type to moan about having to get a job.

The one X factor you don't know right now is how he will handle a losing streak. In my experience, players who read all the books first then jump in sometimes have a harder time handling them. It's easy for him to read Gambling Theory and Other Topics about downswings and standard deviation. Its another thing entirely for him to lose 20% of his BR in one day.