Why don't girls make good music?

[scotty34]

This is an obvious corollary to the girls and humour thread. Really though, I can't think of a single timeless classic created by a female. Pretty much any great song of its time was written and performed by a male as far back as music goes. On those commercials for "50's Classics" or other similar collections they will often include a few female songs, but I really don't think any of them can stand the test of time. They are simply included to be politically correct, or some equally dumb reason. Maybe I'm just a really sexist person, but seriously, do females make any REALLY good music? Give me some examples please

[Clarkmeister]

Live Through This rules.

[istewart]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/PEPH/SN1B1.jpg

[The Stranger]

Patsy Cline

Wow, and here I thought I had problems. At least I still like and respect women.

I think you'd better work on perfecting your masturbation techniques. They may be all you have eventually (or already from the sounds of it).

[nothumb]

Hi, the 1920s called, they want their outlook on gender issues back.

To jostle your memory:

Aretha Franklin
Janis Joplin
Joni Mitchell
The Staples Singers (Mavis pwns)
Billie Holliday
Nina Simone
Ella Fitzgerald

And my all-time favorites:

http://www.govindagallery.com/pages/exhibitions/hiphop/saltnpepa.jpg

Don't trip, trick.

NT

[private joker]

http://mc.clintock.com/first_floor/living_room/sun_porch/cabinet_built-in/audio_cds/ICON-images/liz_phair_-_exile_in_1dc7a2.jpg

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, and here I thought I had problems. At least I still like and respect women.

I think you'd better work on perfecting your masturbation techniques. They may be all you have eventually (or already from the sounds of it).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have complete respect for women as people, and many as very intelligent and sophisticated human beings. I think I'm just noticing that fame in general does not include many women. Perhaps that is because it is only recently that women have been accepted as equals in a politically correct sense, and they just have not had time to prove themselves.

[arod4276]

busted flat in baton rouge.......waitin for a train........................................I Hope u were joking...

[The Stranger]

[ QUOTE ]
busted flat in baton rouge.......waitin for a train........................................I Hope u were joking...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure Kris Kristofferson is male

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
busted flat in baton rouge.......waitin for a train........................................I Hope u were joking...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that even holds a candle to Beethoven or Elvis or Eminem or any artist that was able to change how music was viewied? (I am aware of how ridiculous it may seem to mention these three artists in the same sentence)

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
busted flat in baton rouge.......waitin for a train........................................I Hope u were joking...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that even holds a candle to Beethoven or Elvis or Eminem or any artist that was able to change how music was viewied? (I am aware of how ridiculous it may seem to mention these three artists in the same sentence)

[/ QUOTE ]

I would take twenty seconds of any Janis Joplin song over every Eminem album ever made.

Seriously, WTF? That's a great song from a great album. Joplin could wail.

NT

[arod4276]

NO [censored]

[arod4276]

Yes im sure it does , u have pathetic musical taste

[The Stranger]

http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/mamasandpapas/images/KELLY.jpg

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes im sure it does , u have pathetic musical taste

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we all know how horrible of a musician Beethoven was

[arod4276]

TY, was speaking about EM,, but glad you see the light

[bort411]

Just because I'm vain... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=2724157&Fo rum=,f20,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=272341 3&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=10284&daterange=1 &newerval=36&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&body prev=#Post2724157)

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
busted flat in baton rouge.......waitin for a train........................................I Hope u were joking...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that even holds a candle to Beethoven or Elvis or Eminem or any artist that was able to change how music was viewied? (I am aware of how ridiculous it may seem to mention these three artists in the same sentence)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're comparing the timelessness of Eminem to that of Beethoven or Elvis, I seriously don't think you should be commenting too much on who DOESN'T make music that will last through the ages. Don't get me wrong, for white rap, Eminem is quite good...but putting him in the same sentence with Beethoven and Elvis is a SIN. For that matter, in terms of their respective significance on music as a whole, Beethoven shouldn't have to share a sentence with Elvis, much less say Eminem.

And by the way, Sarah McLachlan is an absolutely brilliant female singer/songwriter whose work will stand the test of time.

[chunk]

op has a valid point.

...and janis joplin is the response?

say you have a 20gig IPOD, how much of it is filled with female artists?

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an obvious corollary to the girls and humour thread. Really though, I can't think of a single timeless classic created by a female. Pretty much any great song of its time was written and performed by a male as far back as music goes. On those commercials for "50's Classics" or other similar collections they will often include a few female songs, but I really don't think any of them can stand the test of time. They are simply included to be politically correct, or some equally dumb reason. Maybe I'm just a really sexist person, but seriously, do females make any REALLY good music? Give me some examples please

[/ QUOTE ]

I also think Aretha Franklin would whoop your ass for this post.

[GuyOnTilt]

How long have women been "allowed" to think creatively on our society?

GoT

Bands That Suck At Being Iron Maiden (http://ninjapirate.com/iron_maiden.html)

Eminem

Iron Maiden likes to make each song sound a little different from all the others. Try it some time.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
op has a valid point.

...and janis joplin is the response?

say you have a 20gig IPOD, how much of it is filled with female artists?

[/ QUOTE ]

At least 1/3 - and I have over 5,000 songs on mine.

[The Truth]

I like chick music.

<font color="white">sexism intended. </font>

[ChipWrecked]

http://www.jonimitchell.com/S&amp;LBioCover.jpg

The young ZepHeds here may want to take note that she was a large influence on Led Zeppelin. In fact, III was an attempt to capture her sound.

[dsm]

http://www.js-surf.com/carol_king.jpg Carol King

http://yselle.w.interia.pl/galeria/images/th_sarah09.jpg Sarah McLachlan

Also:
Karen Carpenter
Patsy Cline (somebody already pointed out)

[bishopstrt]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, the 1920s called, they want their outlook on gender issues back.

To jostle your memory:

Aretha Franklin
Janis Joplin
Joni Mitchell
The Staples Singers (Mavis pwns)
Billie Holliday
Nina Simone
Ella Fitzgerald



[/ QUOTE ]


Good list.
Obviously there are plenty of great female performers but I'm curious have there been many great female composers? I don't know much about music. I would imagine Janis Joplin wrote her own stuff but did people like Patsy Cline, Joni Mitchell, Aretha Franklin? I'm too lazy to research it.

[ChipWrecked]

Janis Joplin: no
Patsy Cline: no ('Crazy' written by Willie Nelson)
Joni Mitchell: yes
Aretha Franklin: no
Carole King: one of the most prolific of modern songwriters

[jakethebake]

Loretta Lynn

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
Janis Joplin: no
Patsy Cline: no ('Crazy' written by Willie Nelson)
Joni Mitchell: yes
Aretha Franklin: no
Carole King: one of the most prolific of modern songwriters

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure Aretha didn't write at least some of her stuff? "Respect" was written by Otis Redding (aka the Master of the Universe), but I thought she wrote some of the other hits. I know the arrangements were built around her piano work and vocal, as in they just let her play and sing, then used the band to fill in space around her, rather than have her sing over an arrangement. Either way, a top notch talent.

Women not talented at music, just wow. Ella Fitzgerald is waiting in hell to whip some ass.

[ QUOTE ]
Loretta Lynn

[/ QUOTE ]
Also in the country vein,

Emmylou Harris
Lucinda Williams

[craig r]

Alright, I am going the punk rock route (plus she is still hot at her age): Kathleen Hannah

craig

Patti Smith
Bjork
Victoria Williams
Beth Orton
Tori Amos

[ChipWrecked]

Are you sure Aretha didn't write at least some of her stuff? "Respect" was written by Otis Redding (aka the Master of the Universe), but I thought she wrote some of the other hits

Best I could Google up was a co-writing credit.

I did find that '(You Make Me Feel) Like A Natural Woman' was written by Carole King, didn't know that.

[SoSo]

Sister Bliss of Faithless - Insomnia.

You sexist prick.

[Al P]

Are there any all black female metal bands out there?

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure Aretha didn't write at least some of her stuff? "Respect" was written by Otis Redding (aka the Master of the Universe), but I thought she wrote some of the other hits

Best I could Google up was a co-writing credit.

I did find that '(You Make Me Feel) Like A Natural Woman' was written by Carole King, didn't know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I did a search but couldn't find a list of credits. I've got some vinyl I'll check when I get home. Could've sworn she wrote at least some of her stuff.

But either way, she rules.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any all black female metal bands out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, but if there were that would be hot.

[Pocket Trips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are there any all black female metal bands out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, but if there were that would be hot.

[/ QUOTE ]


They are about as easy to find as a naturally blonde asian chick

[jakethebake]

4 Non Blondes was awesome. Too bad they just made that one album. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[RacersEdge]

My responses to the "why women aren't funny" thread applies here as well. They don't have the extreme talent.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Live Through This rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, but I think it's pretty clear that the authorship credit was somewhat inaccurate.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
My responses to the "why women aren't funny" thread applies here as well. They don't have the extreme talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is just as irrelevant here as it was there. Perhaps even more so. You will definitely find a lot more examples in this thread.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
They don't have the extreme talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps your choice in women just sucks.

[Rushmore]

Seriously, look into these artists:

Lisa Gerrard
P.J. Harvey
Patty Griffin
Lucinda Williams
Portishead

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My responses to the "why women aren't funny" thread applies here as well. They don't have the extreme talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is just as irrelevant here as it was there. Perhaps even more so. You will definitely find a lot more examples in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compare Elvis, Sinatra, and the Beatles versus which women as far as biggest musical names in the 20th century. The top 100 rock acts ever would be 100% male. Name one great female classical composer, etc, etc.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My responses to the "why women aren't funny" thread applies here as well. They don't have the extreme talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is just as irrelevant here as it was there. Perhaps even more so. You will definitely find a lot more examples in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compare Elvis, Sinatra, and the Beatles versus which women as far as biggest musical names in the 20th century. The top 100 rock acts ever would be 100% male. Name one great female classical composer, etc, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the rest of the thread, dude, I don't have time for this. There's only about a million female musicians, and anyway, music isn't just rock and roll. Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday will be waiting to kick you ass in hell, Janis Joplin will smash a bottle of SoCo over your head for good measure, Willie Mae Thornton, Aretha Franklin, why am I even doing this?

Some of you guys are missing out on some great tunes. Oh well.

[ QUOTE ]
The top 100 rock acts ever would be 100% male.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really don't think Janis, Patty Smith, Jefferson Airplane (Grace Slick as frontWOMAN) Fleetwood Mac w/ Stevie Nicks, Bonnie Raitt, Tina Turner and the girls from Heart would have anything to say about this? Might not be your cup of tea, but you can't pretend these people don't exist.

Again, I'm done. This is silly. It's your loss.

[ThaSaltCracka]

There are only a few female singers I like, and most are R&amp;B singers.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Women not talented at music, just wow. Ella Fitzgerald is waiting in hell to whip some ass.


[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose I was a little unclear in the OP. By no means was my intention to say that women are not talented at music. There have just been very few female musicians who were good enough to change the face of their genre, or even music period. In 100 or 200 years from now, which female artists will still be played?

[imported_The Vibesman]

I'm going to say the names Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin one more time. I don't know why, you're not hearing me.

Now I go away. Let me know when your "Women Aren't Good Writers" thread is coming out.

[ceczar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to say the names Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin one more time. I don't know why, you're not hearing me.

[/ QUOTE ]

look, it's clear the OP overstated his point i guess. but coming up with a handful of example of good musicians who were women in no way invalidates his argument that the vast majority of any consensus list of top musicians would be dominated by men, and it's not even close.

coming up with an answer based on opportunities could be effective, though i'm skeptical that can explain all of the discrepancy.

is it really so hard to understand that an example does not make a rule? stop coming up with lists.

[shadow29]

In addition to the females already named (and for some contemporary stuff), check out Vienna Teng and Diana Krall.

Both are quite talented, albeit in different ways.

And Diana Krall is hott.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to say the names Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin one more time. I don't know why, you're not hearing me.

[/ QUOTE ]

look, it's clear the OP overstated his point i guess. but coming up with a handful of example of good musicians who were women in no way invalidates his argument that the vast majority of any consensus list of top musicians would be dominated by men, and it's not even close.

coming up with an answer based on opportunities could be effective, though i'm skeptical that can explain all of the discrepancy.

is it really so hard to understand that an example does not make a rule? stop coming up with lists.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the OP:
do females make any REALLY good music? Give me some examples please


So...

edit: just because he realized his argument was crap and changed it halfway through is no reason to in no way invalidates the fact that his argument was crap.

[ceczar]

[ QUOTE ]
edit: just because he realized his argument was crap and changed it halfway through is no reason to in no way invalidates the fact that his argument was crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i just assumed that the "music is dominated by men, why?" question was what he meant. the one you are arguing against is clearly retarded, because obviously there is a lot of great music by women. but the fact that "a lot" is nowhere near a reasonable percentage does have the possibility of being an interesting question

[gorie]

maybe if we weren't so busy baking bread we'd have more time to write a little tune.

[Al P]

Stick to the bread and let the dudes make the tunes.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
edit: just because he realized his argument was crap and changed it halfway through is no reason to in no way invalidates the fact that his argument was crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i just assumed that the "music is dominated by men, why?" question was what he meant. the one you are arguing against is clearly retarded, because obviously there is a lot of great music by women. but the fact that "a lot" is nowhere near a reasonable percentage does have the possibility of being an interesting question

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do I keep coming back???

The argument you state is not one that OP has put forth in any post in this thread. The response you quoted from me previously was to this question: "There have just been very few female musicians who were good enough to change the face of their genre, or even music period. In 100 or 200 years from now, which female artists will still be played?"

I stated artists that changed the face of their genres (jazz, rock, and r+b to name a few) and will still undeniably be listened to in 100-200 years. I could have listed a few more examples from this thread - most say Loretta Lynn and Patsy Cline had a huge influence on country music, someone mentioned Lucinda Williams, whose band the Blood Oranges was a huge influence in the alt-country genre. Don't even get me started on the singer-songwriter genre, you're not even allowed to possess a set of testicles in that genre, as is evidenced by the popularity of Sarah McLachlan, Ani DiFranco, and John Maier.

Now, as for the argument you put forth:

I'm not going to come up with a list of all the great music in all the genres throughout the last few centuries, and then do a mathematical computation of % of women.

I think what you are talking about here may be a cultural thing, in that most forms of the entertainment industry are dominated by men, because most forms of business have been dominated by men for a long time. Men get more chances, men are given more breaks, men get to stay around longer even though they are no longer attractive (looking at you, Keith Richards) or never were (that's right, Neil Young.) Same with acting. No one says that men are naturally better actors than women. But even the greatest women actors have trouble getting work as they get older, and have trouble getting serious roles when they are younger. But men work forever, like Connery, Eastwood, Freeman, Douglas.
I think it's just harder for women to break into the boy's club, that's all.

[gorie]

[ QUOTE ]
Stick to the bread and let the dudes make the tunes.

[/ QUOTE ]
well there's your answer !

[BusterStacks]

Anyone who said Sarah McLachlan, is a huge [censored].

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

Melissa Auf der Maur (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3278548&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) makes good music.

Asking why females have never made a classic tune is like asking why Christopher Reeve never won the tour de France.

Women don't push any envelopes. They just sing because they like to. If you are looking for change, you don't go with a woman because they go with the flow and that is why I hope to God, one never becomes President. Women are wierd in that many don't think outside the box sort of speak but it's also why many women never commit mass murder or becomes serial killers. They lack the imagination to do something like that.

[ QUOTE ]
Asking why females have never made a classic tune is like asking why Christopher Reeve never won the tour de France.

Women don't push any envelopes. They just sing because they like to. If you are looking for change, you don't go with a woman because they go with the flow and that is why I hope to God, one never becomes President. Women are wierd in that many don't think outside the box sort of speak but it's also why many women never commit mass murder or becomes serial killers. They lack the imagination to do something like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you strive for stupidity in each and every one of your posts?

If so, you're damn good at it.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who said Sarah McLachlan, is a huge [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what word you used, but you are really very stupid. If you don't like what she does, fine. But wait til you have to leave the woman you love for 3 months or until someone close to you dies...then pop in a Sarah disc. If it doesn't make you emotional, you're a damn robot.

[SammyKid11]

Do you want the real answer to this question? I'm not entertaining the "girls don't make good music" thing, cause it's clear that they have, do, and will continue to. But as for why music is dominated by men...

1) Almost everything with any history to it is dominated by men. Women routinely working and having full careers instead of being homemakers is still very new...and many, many women are still not heading that direction (which I think is fine, different strokes, etc.). This does have a great deal to do with it.

2) Women don't get laid because they're good at playing an instrument or singing. We all know that women respond sexually to talent, creativity, fame, money, etc., far more than men do. For example, I don't give a rat's ass how funny or talented or rich Roseanne Barr is, I am never, ever going to have sex with her. How hard do you think it is for John Goodman to get laid, though? Equally unattractive physically, but I guarantee you he can walk into any club, casino, etc, flash around a few bucks -- hell, just sit at the bar and be seen...within a few minutes girls will be crawling all over him.

Well, now translate that from comedy into music, which girls are WAY more turned on by than sitcoms...and you see why guys have a far greater motivation for learning instruments, writing songs, starting bands, risking everything to make it in music. As some on this board know, I'm the lead singer of a band, record producer, owner of an indie record label, etc. I've been in music my entire professional life.

When I first started playing in rock bands in junior high, I couldn't decide what I wanted to focus on...baseball or rock'n'roll. The first night I played a real club gig at age 14 and had a college chick push me into a hallway and stick her tongue down my throat...I decided really quick what I wanted to spend my time on.

Anyway...huge motivator exists there that girls just don't have. That's another big reason.

[zephed]

Maybelle and Sara Carter. Lookup the Carter family. Apparently very influential in country music.

[BusterStacks]

the word I said starts with a "F" and rhymes with "bag". And yeah, I stand by it. Dude seriously, do you sit down to pee?

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
the word I said starts with a "F" and rhymes with "bag". And yeah, I stand by it. Dude seriously, do you sit down to pee?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes...especially when I just get home from drinking and am gonna fall over if I stand. And don't bust out the [censored] comments...not only does it make you look like an intolerant sack of dog crap, it just doesn't make me feel bad about myself. It just REALLY doesn't matter to me that liking Sarah McLachlan (or even admitting that it's good for bawling your eyes out when some real sad [censored]'s just gone down) means some total loser from the internet thinks I'm gay. Take your retardation elsewhere.

[ChipWrecked]

I bought Sarah's first CD after hearing it at a party in '90, and I think it's great. I also have an indie disk of her original band live with a great 'Solisbury Hill' cover on it.

But, since then her music's gotten a little estrogen heavy even for me. And I'm a huge Joni Mitchell fan. (her original 'Woodstock' completely pwns the CSN cover, btw)

I for one don't think you're gay but with all due respect she's not exactly John Lennon. But hey you've got a lot of guts admitting you bawl your eyes out and I have to give you that much



Remember the good times that we had?
I let them slip away from us when things got bad
How clearly I first saw you smilin' in the sun
Wanna feel your warmth upon me, I wanna be the one


I mean I know people like her and all but is this really good writing? I'm just saying

[jakethebake]

Anyone that thinks girls can't write music has clearly never heard this song.

La La

You can dress me up diamonds
You can dress me up in dirt
You can throw me like a line-man
I like it better when it hurts

Oh, I have waited here for you
I have waited

You make me wanna la la
in the kitchen on the floor
I'll be a french maid
When I meet you at the door
I'm like an alley cat
Drink the milk up, I want more
You make me wanna
You make me wanna scream

You can meet me on an aero-plane
Or in the back of the bus
You can throw me like a boomerang
I'll come back and beat you up

Oh, I have waited here for you
Dont, keep me waiting

You make me wanna la la
in the kitchen on the floor
I'll be a french maid
When I meet you at the door
I'm like an alley cat
Drink the milk up, I want more
You make me wanna

You make me wanna la la
in the kitchen on the floor
I'll be a french maid
When I meet you at the door
I'm like an alley cat
Drink the milk up, I want more
You make me wanna
You make me wanna scream

I feel safe with you
I can be myself tonight
It's alright, with you
Cuz you hold, my secrets tight
You do, You do

You make me wanna la la, la la la, la la, la la la la la la la
la la
You make me wana la la, la la la la

You make me wanna la la
in the kitchen on the floor
I'll be a french maid
When I meet you at the door
I'm like an alley cat
Drink the milk up, I want more
You make me wanna
You make me wanna la la
in the kitchen on the floor
I'll be a french maid
When I meet you at the door
I'm like an alley cat
Drink the milk up, I want more
You make me wanna
You make me wanna scream

You make me wanna la la, la la la, la la, la la la la la la la
la la
You make me wana la la, la la la la
You make me wanna la la, la la la, la la, la la la la la la la
la la
You make me wana la la, la la la la
You make me wanna la la, la la la, la la, la la la la la la la
la la
You make me wana la la, la la la la

- Ashlee Simpson

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[WDC]

Melissa Etheridge rocks but she is not funny.

[ QUOTE ]
Melissa Etheridge rocks but she is not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

very true