Unimproved Buried A's.

[Graham]

Or should I title this "Hand Hardly Worth Talking About"... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Online $4/8 on Ladbrokes. Very loose game (approx 60% to 4th St), generally passive. Don't know my opponent here.

I get AhAd/Js two to left of the bring-in (BI), who's showing the 2c, and raise after two folds. Amazingly - for this game - everyone else folds and I get heads-up with the bring-in. He reraises. I call. Can't remember the folded cards on 3rd now, but I know I was completely live.

4th: I check AhAd/JsTc, BI bets XX/2c5h, I call.

5th: I check AhAd/JsTc2d, BI bets XX/2c5hTd, I check-raise, he calls.

6th I bet AhAd/JsTc2d8s, BI calls XX/2c5hTdJh.

River: I get no help with the 9s and bet. Opponent calls.

I feel I could have played every street a bit differently. Any suggestions or am I looking reasonable.

G

[Andy B]

I think you played it just fine.

[Wombat6]

I would of reraised on 3rd. I would of lead or check raised on forth as well. I probably might have tried for a free card and/or check raised on 6 th and check called on the river.

my guess is he had 2T)2 to start and picked up two pair
or has 2A)2 and has you on a steal or a big pair in the hole maybe QQ or KK.

did the bring bet the full bet or just the bring in?
have you been stealing much with the second high up card?
have you been aggressivly manipulating the pot/players?
were there any/many higher up cards behind you?
is your opponent the kind of player to resteal with a random hand?

[Andy B]

Boy you ask a lot of questions. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Re-raising on third tends to annouce the hand. I think I prefer a check-raise on fourth, but waiting until fifth is fine. When someone limps and re-raises, split Deuces is about the last thing I put him on.

[Graham]

The bring-in just brung-in, he didn't complete the bet. I completed the bet on 3rd from EP, so it shouldn't have looked like a steal. Hence he likely has a good hand. My J was the highest card showing when I completed. I hadn't been playing long and didn't have notes on this guy, but they wouldn't have much on me either (if they were taking notes, that is...).

I was planning to C-R 5th even before I caught my 2, hoping he was tied to the pot by then with a big pair. I can see check-raising 6th instead, tho' was concerned he'd slow down by then if he hadn't double paired. The fact we caught a lot of each others cards could only help me, assuming he isn't rolled. I suspected likely K's or Q's, obviously, esp when I catch the 2. I think he made a mistake to reraise 3rd, instead of waiting, although against the loosies it might be a valid play just to get more $ in the pot when best; they'll play anyway and not use the information.

G

[Wombat6]

In stud, where the best hand is less likely to hold up as opposed to other games such as hold em, I like to be as aggressive with big pairs as possible early . because opponents will rarly let go for a reraise early & I can sometimes get it heads up on the later streets And some dead money in the pot. I deny the lower hands and draws implied pot odds. and because of the image it gives me and it makes it easy to drive better hands off on the later streets on the later hands. I do like the call(3rd) and then check raise (4th)/ bet or free card play (5th)though. Its just one example of programed betting in 7 stud high.

as far as split 2's with a suited A in a loosely structured game or a tight game ( most online games are of loose structures) I submit Pg. 165 of 7CSFAP as exhibit "A.1" and Pg. 164 as exhibit "A.2"

However I feel it is far more likely he has KK, QQ or two hi suited connected in the hole.

I dont think rolled ups is much of a threat here. they are just not common enough to fear all that much. and his late street play doesnt suggest them.

Of course us marsupials have never been credited with being that smart.

Wombat6

[MRBAA]

I think you overplayed your hand here. The bring in almost certainly does not think you're stealing, as you suggest, because of your early postion. If he is a competent player, his reraise strongly suggests kings, queens or the other two aces in the hole. I think he'd be less likely to reraise his only caller if rolled. If he is an overly loose aggressive type, I'd say split deuces with an ace or king is also possible. Many bad players do play this way. The point is, in stud you often wind up in situations where just calling is the right play. I think your raise on fifth is okay as you are probably winning, but once he calls I'd check sixth and seventh if unimproved. I just can't be that confident about what my opponent has to bet these streets, and once he calls my raise on fifth, I doubt he's folding.
What happened?

[Graham]

Sorry, forgot I hadn't put the result. I must be slightly below wombats on the intelligence scale. I was going to originally, though usually don't 'cos I think I'm less likely to get results-biased feedback.

Anyway my AhAd/JsTc2d8s/9s wins by one pip of the third kicker vs AcAs/2c5hTdJh/8d.

I think your comments are spot on...except for checking 6th and 7th.
On 6th I'm still ahead vs a buried big pair (even if he has the other A's). He hasn't caught an A, K or Q to possibly give him a reasonable two pair, plus we're both also catching relatively dead cards - improving my chances of holding onto the lead. I liked cathing the 2 on 5th.

On 7th I almost checked, but realised it's that situation where I have to act first and it's better to bet. If 2nd and checked to, I'd just show down my A's (but I'd still have thought about a bet in this instance). If I check first, he will quite likely bet two pair and check a lesser hand than mine. I gain when he calls with a smaller pair (or smaller same hand in this case). He's not too likely to raise 2 pair by now. Here, with his likely starting hand and his catching dead cards, the chances are I'm simply going to get a call from a hand I can beat. At least that was my reasoning.

G

[Andy B]

I agree that checking sixth would be a serious mistake. Your opponent has done nothing to suggest that you're not still boss.

I like your thinking on the river.

[MRBAA]

Well played and well thought out. In the 5-10 at Mohegan Sun or FW, you could end up looking at something like deuces and fives here, hence my feeling of being more cautious. I agree that no reasonable opponent would have that hand, though.

[Andy B]

In stud, where the best hand is less likely to hold up as opposed to other games such as hold em, I like to be as aggressive with big pairs as possible early

This strikes me as a reason to be less aggressive, not more. So long as you're getting your money in with the best of it, it shouldn't matter too much. In this case, the hand was already heads-up. When Hero completes with a Jack in the door, he is representing Jacks. When the other guy raises, he is saying that he has Jacks beaten. If Hero now comes over the top, he's basically representing Aces. I think that the deception in smooth calling has real value, and they're both going to the river anyway.

My copy of 7CS4AP is over 1000 miles away just now, but it seems to me that they say that, specifically, (A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif) 3/forums/images/icons/club.gif is playable for a full bet, but whether you should make it a full bet yourself is debatable. I think they also say that if you have a hand and a re-raise will get it heads-up with a pair smaller than Aces, you should re-raise. This hand is already heads-up. There is no point in re-raising with a split pair of Deuces in the bring-in's position. I'm not saying I've never seen it done, but it would be a poor play, in my opinion. In any case, I maintain that a large buried pair is far more likely than split Deuces in this instance.

[Graham]

The more I've thought about it, the happier I am with my actions through the hand. Well, the result makes it better.

I wonder, though, whether check-raising 4th and lead betting 5th might have been sensible. I was half worried in the back of my skull about trip 2's, so if I got popped on 5th after C-R'ing 4th, then I could release the hand. Is that a valid idea if you don't know the opponent?

At the time I hadn't actually thought of MRBAA's point about trip 2's being less likely 'cos of his 3rd reraise.

Anyway, thanks for all comments, folks.

G

(MRBAA: wow, you have players who might reraise with 25/2...I thought the ladbrokes players were my favourites /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ..)

[patrick dicaprio]

as i was reading your post i was going through how i would have played it, and you did exactly what i would have done on every street. i am guessing that you lost the hand, but havent read the results.

in the future you may not want to post the results so quickly, because you may get less responses. i read a post and respond without reading the other responses so it doesnt bother me but i am sure that others dont, and you may prevent someone from responding.

pat

[patrick dicaprio]

i think you have it wrong with some of these plays. firstly if you reraise on third then you are basically giving your hand away. but if you did reraise, then why would you think you could successfully checkraise on fourth? wouldnt your opponent likely take a free card?

also if you reraise on fourth why are you doing it. i think the better play is to reraise on fifth and get an extra half bet in the pot. you shoudl checkraise here even if you are behind and your opponent has two small pair since you are still in good shape to win the hand and the play will turn a profit.

another thing is that i dont think the factors you mention at the end of your post make much difference in how the hand is to be played. for example, virtually no one at this level will notice if you have been stealing with the second highest upcard, and even if they did i dont think it would change the way that it should be played heads up.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

well you obviously made the right river play and your thinking on the river is right out of 7CSFAP. I think in these games if you always bet the river heads up with this hand you wouldnt be too far off. in the games i play if you dont have a pair on board you will be called virtually every time by anyone with a pair.

Pat

[Wombat6]

the reason is knock the last player out and win it right there. Or win it with a scare card after you check raise on fourth.

obviously this play wouldnt work here because the boards were practically duplicated. .Another reason to reraise is to encourage him to get himself pot stuck with a second best hand If he continues to play after you check raise on fourth and bet on fifth.

Of course if your opponent is a bad player you might want to let him in (on third) so he can make even bigger mistakes on the later streets. Or to keep the pot small so to blow him out easily on a later street.

remember I said I liked the flat call, check raise, bet, senario.

There is no good reason I can see to slow down with the Ace's heads up because your opponent has shown willingness to play. So slowing down in this case is probably costing you money . And allows you opponent to get card to beat you with at a discount. You are no where near stong enough to slow play with AA in this senario.

this is the reason I ask many questions because in poker you need all the information your opponent is willing to give you. If a small bet can gain me information I need to save or gain a large bet then that half bet is well utilized.

[Wombat6]

even against 2 pr you are not that big of a dog with Live A's however because of the fact that the boards were practically duplicated makes this some what less important but not irrelevant.

however I think you played it rather well over all.

Wombat6

[Wombat6]

because I need a second pair to beat two under pair. but a check raise (if he should bet) could often get two underpair to fold especially dead ones.( again with a dupicated board with isnt nearly as critical or likely) also I dont like his higher suited board. that is why if I miss I check call the river because he is almost surely going to bet even if he misses. If you bet You are so likely to get raised here it isnt funny.

of course I know nothing of these players.

[Andy B]

You are suggesting that a player would re-raise with a split pair of Deuces in the hopes that his opponent, who has raised from an early position himself, would fold for one more bet, getting something like 4:1 on his call. I've never folded in a spot like this, and I can't think of a time that I've ever seen it done. That strikes me as extremely wishful thinking.

[Wombat6]

Ok Ok I capitulate. You should play slowly when your A's are most likely the best hand and speed up when your hand is likely beat.

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Wombat6