Analyzing flop texture (Let's look at an example from HOH)

[pergesu]

Going over HOH again, and I started reading Part 6, Betting After the Flop. The first section is called Texture of the Flop, and it was the very first hand that got me thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
You're on the button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

MP makes a modest raise, a player calls between you, and you elect to call.

The flops are
1) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif
2) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm ignoring the third flop since it's shitty for your hand.

Anyway, the first part of his analysis makes sense to me. Flop 1 is a good flop, flop 2 is a decent flop.

What I didn't really agree with is how he said to play them...he said you should be very aggressive on the first flop, and a lot more careful on the second one.

I like the first flop. It's really easy to play for me. But I wouldn't be really aggressive with it...I'd put in a bet, and if someone makes a substantial raise I dump it. He's either got an overpair, AQ, may be overplaying AK or a smaller pair. If he puts in a raise I'm probably beat, so I let it go.

Flop 2 should be played more aggressively than Flop 1 in my opinion. With a straight draw and flush draw out there, people are going to give lots of action with weaker hands. Many low limit players will get very aggressive with just a draw. So while it's tougher to play, I think you can be more aggressive because you'll get action from a lot of worse hands.

That last sentence is the point of all this, I guess. I think it's probably better to be more aggressive on flops with decent texture than it is to on flops with great texture, if you have a marginal holding. If I had AQ on the first flop I'm going crazy with it. But in this case, where you likely get significant action only from a better hand, you'd want to be more passive. And then on the second flop, with that marginal holding, you'd be aggressive because you'll get weak hands to come along.

Thoughts?

[Big Limpin']

On flop #1, the ultimate in untextured, and are on the button? If its checked around to you, you can be "aggressive" in that you bet, and bet to take the pot right there. THen you pat yourself on the back for outflopping them with your QJ.
Expect this hand to go:
check/check/bet/fold/fold more often than not, and if you get played back at, you can really easily drop.

ON flop #2, its much less likely to go check/check/bet/fold/fold, here its likely someone else has *something* he would like to continue/see 4th. You're hand still looks to stack up real nice, but you could have a big action pot on your hands. When DH says to play this one "carefully", he doesnt mean weak, or to play slow. I think he just refers to the likelyhood that theres another decent hand lurking there. Especially in deepstack situations (early sng, or ring), this textured flop (flop #2) is the one to be played more "carefully".

FLop #1: you will win alot of small pots. "aggo" bet, usually uncalled

FLop #2: you will win some huge pots, lose some huge ones, win some small, etc, strap in and prepare for callers when you bet. be "careful" about getting pwned, but you still likely have a % favorite hand to push.

EV1 < EV2 though.

BL'

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
You're on the button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

MP makes a modest raise, a player calls between you, and you elect to call.

The flops are
1) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif
2) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your play on the first hand

The 2nd flop however I find pretty easy also. I am only really afraid of the KJ, against anything else Hero is a favourite (or a marginal dog to trips.) Since SNG's are so low stacked I would play for all my chips here - raise 2/3 the pot on the flop, push a raise, push the turn also if called on the flop.

Sadly I never get into these situations because I'm a preflop WUZ.

[pergesu]

What I'm saying is I'd be a lot more aggressive on the second flop because I'll get action from weak hands. On the first flop, throw out a normal bet and it's likely everyone folds. If someone plays back, you're likely beat.

I guess I don't really see his distinction here. You shouldn't let either of those flops go unbet. It's just that the first one I'm tossing if I get action, and the second one I'm jamming.