Ethics question

[IgnoreMe]

I have recently played a new poker site and have some questions. This site only has 20 or 30 real $ players and at least 5 of them are employees of the site. I'm not talking about prop players, I'm talking programmers, managers...
My question is, is this generally acceptable?

[rusty JEDI]

No, this is obviously not ethical.

If you got proof i'd love to see it.

[justus]

I think I know the room he is talking about. I play there as well. It's true that there are at least 5 players who prop the game. They start games and fill it until more players show up. I think this is normal in a new room. The people here are always complaining about the new sites without enough players. This site has merely taken the precaution of having people to fill the games. I have played in many B&M rooms where a dealer will sit in to fill the table. So while I don't like that there are so many props. It begs the question. How can this be unethical?

[Mike Haven]

ok ok you got me

is it V*ctoriasP*ker.c*m?

[Simon Diamond]

I'm not talking about prop players, I'm talking programmers, managers...

Are you trying to tell us that the above is an ethical way to run a site? Personally I think it is a no brainer, why on earth would you play there?

Simon

[IgnoreMe]

Proof, they chat about "shop" all day, I never though of gathering 'evidence'. I'm just wondering if these guys might be ripping me off by some means other than my own poor play. And it is not Victor.....com, although it is a 'popular' site.

[arod4276]

what site is it?

[IgnoreMe]

The site had lots of 'Beta' promos, I won over $300 poker $, I have already withdrawn my original deposit and still have some promo money at the site, the only way to get $ from it is to play hands, so thats why I am playing there. They don't hide the fact that they are employees and support is pretty good when you are playing against the manager lol.

[IgnoreMe]

I feel a little uneasy naming the site here, I don't want to start any trouble, but it is a 'popular' site.

[pokerfan]

Not really so popular if you ask me.. I also decided to do a who is search on the domain to see what I could find. The site is registered to someone in Miami,FL If this is really the case the site is operating illegally out of the U.S. Could not see this place lasting too much longer, as they might be thrown in jail if this is true. Registrant:
A Virtual Wager Online
4684 NW 69th Ave
Miami, FL 33166-5609
US

Domain Name: POPULARPOKER.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
A Virtual Wager Online
Receivable, Accounts
4684 NW 69th Ave
Miami, FL 33166-5609
US
888-771-9080
888-771-9080 [fax]
sbmanager@v-wager.com

Domain created on 12-Aug-2002
Domain expires on 11-Aug-2004
Last updated on 22-Aug-2002

[Inthacup]

If the manager/programmers are open about who they are at the table, why can't you be open about what site they're playing at. If they didn't want anyone to know who they were, they certainly wouldn't have told you. Either be willing to tell what site you're talking about, or quit asking BS ethics questions that don't benefit anyone but yourself.

[Homer]

Harshly put, but I agree. Why keep information to yourself that would be beneficial to the rest of us?

-- Homer

[IgnoreMe]

Its just that I have enjoyed the site, and the staff is upfront about thier presence, I was just curious if this was common behavior. I am aware that negative posts can effect someones bussiness and I am not going to denegrate a site without a proper understanding of the situation.

one other question, I have been asked to stop asking questions that benifit only me, questions have to have a higher educational purpose?

[SunTzu68]

While I may not want to play at the site in question, I don't believe it is unethical if they are upfront and honest about it. As a player I have the choice to play there or not, and assuming they have not lied or slanted the truth it can't be unethical.

[HUSKER'66]

He is trying to tell us, but in a very weird way...the hint is he keeps putting "popular" in quotes.... I think that he is refering to Popularpoker.com. Just a guess on my part;have never played the site.

[Inthacup]

I have been asked to stop asking questions that benifit only me, questions have to have a higher educational purpose?

My point is that you're witholding potentially harmful information from the very players you seek advice from. It's one thing to not volunteer the information. But when you avoid the question when it is directly asked to you, that's unethical IMO.


I am not going to denegrate a site without a proper understanding of the situation.

You aren't degenerating anything. If anyone was at fault, it would be the site, and the workers that are allowed to play there. The only way this site will be degenerated is if through the course of investigation(Lorinda?) it is found that the prop players/employees have access to collusion or cheating tactics. Finding this information would be beneficial to everyone here, including yourelf. If they can collude or see hole cards, it's just a matter of time before they take YOUR money.

[Homer]

I don't see anything wrong with asking questions that only benefit you, I just think in this case you should reveal the name of the site because that would be the courteous thing to do.

-- Homer

[RollaJ]

I too downloaded a simmilar "Pro"gram a few months ago. It was a very "Pro"fessional looking site, "Pro"vided you didnt hope to win money. While I consider myself a "Pro"ficient player (perhaps even a "Pro"digy), I was unable to "Pro"duce any "Pro"fits. There were "Pro"fuse "Pro"motions advertising this "Pro"prietary site, yet it seemed "Pro"bably 80% of the players were "Pro"ps. Ihave no "Pro"of of any "Pro"nounced cheating, So I "Pro"bably shouldnt say which "Pro"prietary site this was. I just "Pro"ceeded to cash out and "Pro"hibit myself from playing there anymore /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[adam74]

A very interesting review, rollaj, but which site are you talking about? ProkerStars? TrueProker? PartyProker, perhaps? /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[RollaJ]

I hope you are kidding..... /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

[William]

By the way, I've found this new site that is offering a 500% bonus on 1st deposit, no playing needed to cash out.
I want to ask everybody if they think it would be ethical of me to take the easy cash? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

PS. Please don't ask me to reveal the name of the site, I don't want to harm anybody. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[adam74]

Kidding about what? Could you be more s"pacific", please?

[GrannyMae]

ok, this is a tough post to make, but here goes:

i know a site that that management plays at. when i found this out, i stopped playing the site. i am 100% certain that there is no funny business going on there, but i am just not comfortable with it.

i would never name the site because of my beleif that there is currently no cheating or colluding going on, and it would be a deathwish (IMO) if it became common knowledge. why would i want to hurt someones business because the manager is making a stupid move by playing? there are other employees there that depend on their income from their job, and i don't want to be responsible for people losing their job because a site lost all of their business becase people assumed that there was something going on that was was wrong.

i closely monitor discussion of this site, and will be the first person to bust the site if i hear anything that makes me think that the manager has gone from a casual player to a colluder. i also pop on to the site occasionally to see if the manager is playing, and i watch for a while.

i don't claim to be 100% accurate in my diagnosis that it is innocent, but it is a HUGE charge to level, and it comes with serious repercussions. this post won't make me popular, but i have no reason to blow the whistle. i rationalize my keeping this quiet with the casual "policing" methods that i describe above.

it is a shitty thing to have this knowledge, and i wish i was never told by the manager, but i was. i don't think that it is warranted to come on this board and proclaim that he is playing his site, because he is LOSING. *that* is why i am keeping it quiet for now.

however, like i said, i will never play the site again. the manager seems oblivious to the conflict of interest, and this sad fact is scarier than anything else.

it's a stupid move, but i am not going to ruin someones business over it. players need to be aware at all times that things like this can and will happen online, and take steps necessary to minimize your exposure.

i apologize to those that think i am an [censored] by not revealing the site. i could have simply not made this post, and i would not come under fire for not exposing it. i made the post to add credibility to the original poster's claim, and to tell everyone that things like this can and DO happen. if you take the knowledge that it is indeed happening, and it bothers you that much, there is an EASY solution. stay away from small and medium sites. i think this solution is too harsh, and i do not follow this advice, but don't discount the fact that this is happening, it certainly is.

[Muddy]

I play at the site that's being discussed here, I've used my nickname on here so those of you can identify me from that. There are many levels of staff playing on the site as it is still Beta testing whilst it has a "soft opening", the difference being the site specifically chose to openly identify anyone associated with the site, that plays on there.

Every site on the internet, and I mean every site is played by staff, management, programmers. The question is would you prefer the site to be open and honest about it or would you prefer them to conceal the fact?

If the site is open and honest that gives you, the player, and informed choice for that site, you can choose not to play in the games in which staff are playing or you can choose not to play the site altogether.

However thinking that you are immune from this occuring on other sites where they simply choose not indentify those people who are staff and consultants is ignorance of the highest level.

I am not a member of staff on this site, I am not a paid prop and I have no financial interest in the site, I do however, personally know some of the people involved in this site, I play with my own money, no one elses and I am happy that it is above board and straight.

Consider your thought process here, if you walked into a casino and found that management or dealers were playing in poker games on their days off would you simply leave the casino because it surely must be rigged? of course you wouldn't...

In my experience most programmers are exactly that....programmers, have you ever actually played against any of them?....they are generally appalling at poker, of course there will always be exceptions but generally I'm more than happy to play them.

Alan Mudd (Muddy)

[Grambo]

I believe he is referring to P*pularp*ker.c*m, and not only are "hosts" playing, but also the head of security. If you want proof, it was openly posted by the "host", Razzo, on Rec.Gambling.Poker that the head of security is the biggest money winner there. And this doesn't smell fishy?

[mbpoker]

>Every site on the internet, and I mean every site is played by staff, management, programmers.

How do you know that? I would bet that this is not true for Paradise, Stars, True, Planet, and many other.

>If the site is open and honest that gives you, the player, and informed choice for that site, you can choose not to play in the games in which staff are playing or you can choose not to play the site altogether.

When a new player joins the game do they announce the fact that management, programmers, etc., are playing? Do they have special labels that point to this, like "Joe-SiteManager"?

>Consider your thought process here, if you walked into a casino and found that management or dealers were playing in poker games on their days off would you simply leave the casino because it surely must be rigged? of course you wouldn't...

Do dealers in a casino have access to the cards that you mucked on the flop? Can they look at the last 1000 hands that you played?

[Mike Haven]

just played a play game there - the software seems quite smooth

[MS Sunshine]

"Every site on the internet, and I mean every site is played by staff, management, programmers."

I also disagree that this statement is completely true or even mostly true. Most sites look at this as a PR blackhole for little gain.

If players are made aware that employees play, don't take part in big money promos and tournaments, and are restricted to low-limit games than I have no problem with this policy of employees playing. It is nice to think that most support folks play poker at a site oppossed to having one poker knowledgeable person per shift.

"Do dealers in a casino have access to the cards that you mucked on the flop? Can they look at the last 1000 hands that you played?"

In theory, I see your point, but I don't really think anyone would go to this trouble for low limit poker.

MS Sunshine

[Fraubump]

Nothing short of having the information that staff play there in a bold banner that anyone playing the site would see prior to playing is good enough. Just casually talking about it at the table ain't good enough.

[RollaJ]

I am sorry I thought with all the "PRO"s in quotes it was rather obvious that I was talking about ProPoker.com, a 2+2 favorite /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Rushmore]

Ethics are subjective. You have to decide this for yourself.

The fact that you aware of the facts indicates there must be some disclosure of these facts, so, uh, the fact of the matter is that, as a point of fact, uh, you need to decide this for yourself.

(That sentence would not have been very effective without the word "fact.")

Seriously: My honest advice is to avoid falling prey to all of these deposit bonuses and whatnot, and just find an established site where you are comfortable and stay there.

I further advise that site be PokerStars. But that's just me. Oh, yeah: and everyone else who knows anything about anything. So there.

[jek187]

My honest advice is to avoid falling prey to all of these deposit bonuses

I must agree. Falling prey to free money is awful.

[JimmyJet]

First time poster...long time player....have recently started playing again at Popular Poker online. Realize there are management, staff and consultants for the site that play in the games and tournaments. Keep in mind this is a new site in Beta programming and they are asking for help to make their program better. Personal experience is that their tournaments and prizes have been very generous. Just p[laying in a couple tournaments a day out of 12 offered each day has been very rewarding for me. My tournament winnings have enabled me to play poker again and all it cost me was my time as all tournaments have been freeroll. I ended up with over $1,000 in winnings over the last month and I for the most part had to play HE, which is not my best game. Omaha 8 is my favorite. I have played in their real money games still in Beta and have done well at those also and have enjoyed their new game BIG RIVER, allows you to make a big bet after the river card is dealt.

They do have "bugs" and they are working to correct those with their players help. So I feel because this is in beta and they make no secret of who they are and are always willing to listen there should be no ethics question. For the most part they are not that great at the tables from what I have seen. I appreciate the opportunity they have given an "old" guy like me to get back into playing poker.

[Rushmore]

Guess I'll expand my response with an anecdote.

I thought the deposit bonus at ProPoker sounded good. I made my deposit.

I don't know if anyone here has played or continues to play this site, but it's a joke.

Anyway, if I hadn't been so stupid as to want a "free" $100, I would have been at Stars playing $30/60 instead of giving away my buyin to the sleazebuckets who run that site.

I have never in my life been so sure that something was WAY out of line at a poker game in my life.

I take full responsibility. I will not make the same mistake again.

I stick to my original advice. And YES, I do it based on ONE bad experience. You got it.

The only way I'm jumping sites is if someone who I know and trust tells me there's good reason. Otherwise, I stay put.

[kdog]

[justus]

get over yourself with the shill alerts. the guy does play there all the time. he is merely stating facts as he knows them. the site is not propoker. we already have said that it is popular poker. it is your right not to try new sites but it is also the right of the posters here to give opinions that are contrary to yours. although I'm beginning to doubt that. seems we can only talk about pokerstars in a positive light. how boring. my two cents. shill alert!

[B Shulman]

In theory the negative ethical issue only comes into play if they are receiving some advantage that you are not.

In practise it looks terrible and might be a big clue that you are dealing with a room that at the very least may have problems paying you in the future.

I do not know who it is (perhaps one of my advertisers. I hope they have paid /forums/images/icons/smile.gif ), but surely you can find a better spot.

[Inthacup]

the manager seems oblivious to the conflict of interest, and this sad fact is scarier than anything else.

1st Prize: Telling others about what you know, allowing them to go into the situation with their eyes open.

2nd Prize: Doing everything you can to deter the manager from playing there thus avoiding the conflict of interest.

Booby Prize: Doing nothing.

If you aren't going to go for the Gold, Silver ain't that bad.

[Muddy]

As it turns out, the original poster was discussing a site other than PopularPoker.com, however you like many other readers here have jumped wrongly to a conclusion that it was Popularpoker being discussed. Chinese whispers doing it's best on the internet again....

Secondly, if you actually read Razzo's article on rgp correctly, you would notice how he was explaining that the security consultant for popularpoker had visited costarica, won a large tournament there and cleaned up in the cash games..LIVE GAMES at no point did he ever say that this person was a big winner on the site he is a consultant for.

If you are going to refer to a post at least have the basic ability to read the original post correctly and quote it in it's original context.

Alan Mudd

[Muddy]

Now here again we have an example of how someone armed with a little information and even less common sense has posted details about a site that are incorrect.

The address you have posted is a company that owns the building in which the servers that popularpoker rents space on are based.

If you want to know the incorporation details of popularpoker you can email them direct and I'm sure they will be more than happy to provide you with the information. I'd be surprised if they objected to you posting it on here too boot.


The internet is a wonderful thing if used correctly. Put a monkey infront of it and see if He can find a company that sells banana's and you might get some interesting results....get my point?

Alan Mudd

[Muddy]

This is actually a very good question, any staff members that wish to hold an account on the site can. They have to hold the account in their own name (not some nickname).

So I'll throw this open to you......what would like to see?

I thought maybe any player in this position should be obliged to have <nickname>(staff) showing on the screen when they sit.

Any other suggestions?

Alan Mudd

[hmmmmm]

I know exactly what site you mean. What I didn't know is that others knew.

[Muddy]

Seriously: My honest advice is to avoid falling prey to all of these deposit bonuses and whatnot, and just find an established site where you are comfortable and stay there.

I further advise that site be PokerStars. But that's just me. Oh, yeah: and everyone else who knows anything about anything. So there.
__________________________________________________ ___

As generalisations go this a pretty big one....steer clear of sites offering free money and deposit bonuses?....Well I made a deposit at pokerstars not too long ago to get a deposit bonus they were offering...kinda contradicts what your saying here.

It's called marketing, bums on seats, customers through the door, show me one poker site that doesn't or has never offered any form of deposit bonus?


Alan Mudd

[jek187]

1) Not researching a site before depositing: Bad!

2) Deposit bonuses: Good. Assuming proper research has been carried out and the results are satisfactory.

[cmwings]

So Granny, it's ok for you to "will be the first person to bust the site" but no one else? You found a manager "playing"? Whoop-de-dinky-do? I FOUND A MANAGER HEISTING, named exactly where, and referenced the PROOF!

If that bores you, then go deposit and play "thepokerclub".

Good Luck Cashing Out From "thepokerclub".
mrducks/cmwings

[GrannyMae]

I FOUND A MANAGER HEISTING, named exactly where, and referenced the PROOF!


it is a question of credibility CMWINGS.

i am a smartass anonymous troll, and i have more credibility when i am posting monkeys peeing and smileys getting blowjobs than you have when you post your well presented 'evidence'.

how does that make you feel??

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/d0/suck.gifhttp://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/i0/monkeypiss.gif

[cmwings]

I don't know? How does it make you feel?

Credibility is earned. I question "thepokerclub"s and you would in turn question mine? All I can tell you is to go read "sith" and "Patricia Murphy's" posts. If you can't decipher the crock within those DEADBEAT'S posts, then fasten your seat-belt, cause I'm going to be SINGING TRUTH here, there, and everywhere until those DEADBEAT'S "thepokerclub" is CLOSED FOR GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck Cashing Out From "thepokerclub"!
mrducks/cmwings