Importance of early level play in an SNG

[minwoo]

I 4-table the 55s and have been doing so for about 6 months now. I can confidently say that early play just isn't that important at the 55s and below. But recalling a post made by Gigabet a while ago(can't remember which one), starting from a xxx buy-in level, early/actual playing become essential. Push-botting later in the game (as Raptor calls it) just doesn't reap a desireable ROI at these higher buy-ins. I'm just wondering at which buy-in level this is so. Comments?

[minwoo]

"a SNG" not "an SNG" ...i passed AP english too

whatever.bump

[pergesu]

Interesting that I just made a kind of similar response in another thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3278148&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1).

I think it's a mistake to think that early play isn't important. Perhaps it's not important in achieving a satisfactory ROI...but there's a lot of EV to be gained, because I think most of your opponents play worse throughout the tourney than they do on the bubble. It's just a lot tougher to figure out how to exploit...but when you do, I bet your ROI would improve massively.

Sure wish I had a clue how to do that.

[bruin]

I agree, early play is not important at the lower buy-in SNGS, at least from what I've experienced. In the past, if I have to take a crap/shower I'll put my player on away, lose a few blinds and be ready to get active when the blinds get big. My win rate has not been significantly changed in the SNGs where I do this, although I'll admit there's not enough mathematical evidence for that to be proven.

[Michael C.]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think early play can be underrated. Because don't the worst players tend to bust early? And if you don't get the money, another player will. I guess if you are at a level where you are such an overwhelming favorite that you don't need to gamble, you can wait for the later levels. But I probably bust out 9th, 10th more than most here, but also double up more early too. And I think overall that's helped my results. Of course I also play just the 109s and 215s and don't know what it's like in the lower SNGs.

Can i ask if by 4 table you mean 4 tourneys at one time, at the 55 dollar level?
If this is so, how is your ROI doing this (I am seriously going to assume you simply play solid for all 4 tables) and what kind of bankroll are we talking here (thousands, tens of thousands)?
Was just wondering because I was considering playing 2 tables at the 25 dollar level simply because i cash so much there...
As to your question, I believe that early game strategy is lacking in most players...they simply are either too loose or too tight. I tend to sit back and watch but also try to gamble in profitable spots (or potentially profitable anyway). Also, a good look at the beginning of the game of all the players tends to let you know how to play them near the end...

[citanul]

if by "it's not that important" you mean you can in fact turn a profit without doing it well, you are right. you can not come close to turning maximum profit though, without playing the early levels well.

citanul

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that I just made a kind of similar response in another thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3278148&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1).

I think it's a mistake to think that early play isn't important. Perhaps it's not important in achieving a satisfactory ROI...but there's a lot of EV to be gained, because I think most of your opponents play worse throughout the tourney than they do on the bubble. It's just a lot tougher to figure out how to exploit...but when you do, I bet your ROI would improve massively.

Sure wish I had a clue how to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

EV translates directly into ROI. The basic question is "is there EV to be gained/lost" or "does it have an effect on your ROI". They're the same thing.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
EV translates directly into ROI. The basic question is "is there EV to be gained/lost" or "does it have an effect on your ROI". They're the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't ask that though. He asked if it's "important." As citanul pointed out, it's not if you just want to turn a profit. I'm saying you should be able to exploit EV edges earlier on, which of course then means your ROI is higher.

[Freudian]

Problem is that it is much harder to learn to do well, while the pushing is pretty easy to get the hang of. That in itself explains why this board is mainly focused around late plays because there are less "it depends" there.

But I think if you play the early levels really well the later levels become easier to play also (perhaps allowing you to pass on some marginal plays in level 4-5 etc).

[eastbay]

$109

eastbay

[minwoo]

[ QUOTE ]
$109

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Darn. I was getting ready to move up to the 109s too. Guess I should bring up my BR a bit more.

I don't completely abandon all play in early levels (ie post/fold). I just tend to avoid gambles with AK preflop and if I'm unsure about a hand postflop and I'm not short-stacked, then I can let it go. Of course, if I have any kind of read against an opponent, I will play accordingly.

To be honest, I'm actually kind of happy to hear that early play becomes important at 109s and up. These days it feels like a total crapshoot when bubble time comes around. I would like to know that skilled play is involved in winning an SNG. But on the other hand, maybe I suck at post flop play and i'll have to go back to push-botting at the 22s.

[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask if by 4 table you mean 4 tourneys at one time, at the 55 dollar level?
If this is so, how is your ROI doing this

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 4-tabling the 55s (4 tourneys at once) w/ a 5.5k bankroll. I've been pretty much breaking even for last the two months at the 55s.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm 4-tabling the 55s (4 tourneys at once) w/ a 5.5k bankroll. I've been pretty much breaking even for last the two months at the 55s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your basis for claiming that post-flop play isn't important at the $55s is that...you're breaking even?!

[Mr_J]

"I can confidently say that early play just isn't that important at the 55s and below."

You can get a decent ROI without it, but you can get a great ROI with it. There's just so much dead money early on it's a bit silly not to take advantage of it (if your goal is to maximise profit).

[minwoo]

[ QUOTE ]

Your basis for claiming that post-flop play isn't important at the $55s is that...you're breaking even?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I don't completely neglect postflop play in the early levels. I just don't take unnecessary risks when I still have chips to push-bot at the later levels.

And as far as breaking even goes...remember that little thing called VARIANCE? Hey, at least I haven't been suffering a loss /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your basis for claiming that post-flop play isn't important at the $55s is that...you're breaking even?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I don't completely neglect postflop play in the early levels. I just don't take unnecessary risks when I still have chips to push-bot at the later levels.

And as far as breaking even goes...remember that little thing called VARIANCE? Hey, at least I haven't been suffering a loss /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, taking unnecessary risks is a bad idea pretty much by definition. So I guess I'm not sure what you mean, exactly.

Sure I remember variance, but you said that you've been breaking even for two months. To me that implies quite a lot of tournaments...if you're breaking even over 1000, it seems much more likely to me that you're a break-even player than that you're a 20% player, variance or no variance.

[Nicholasp27]

well if u look at icm:
(10/1 used for dollar amounts)

on hand 1, your ev is $10
after 3 levels, your stack is down to 655 and there are about 7 people left and your ev is down to $9

as levels go on and you keep getting blinded, your ev goes down and down

so being able to get some chips early on certainly will help...but the key is to not gamble your whole stack on coin flips and such, as winning won't help your ev that much and losing takes it to zero, and you supposedly are ok being shorter stacked when blinds rise due to your expert pushbot strategy

I would be fascinated to hear what "early level play" we are talking about here?

I essentially toss everything other than 22+ or AQ+ in Levels 1 through 3, depending on the usual things like position, stacks, etc. 22-99 I play for set value, limping, folding to anything other than a re-raise, and folding the flop if it doesn't hit or isn't over top pair. TT and JJ I play for more than set value, but very carefully and cautiously. QQ-AA I play aggressively and am willing to bust out with these hands early, depending on flop. AQ I'm very careful with, often folding pre-flop. AK lately I have been pushing with any significant pot to get pre-flop. If not, 3xBB raise w/ c-bet and throw away thereafter.

Is this considered "early level play"? Or, is this standard SNG super tight play? What areas should I look at expanding into? Should I think about making plays in LP, say at Level 2 where I can pickup 45 chips? I've been thinking about blind stealing on the button figuring it has to be +EV w/ all the fish at the $10s given my position and (likely) post-flop advantage in skill.


Would love to hear any thoughts.

[Kama45]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be fascinated to hear what "early level play" we are talking about here?

I essentially toss everything other than 22+ or AQ+ in Levels 1 through 3, depending on the usual things like position, stacks, etc. 22-99 I play for set value, limping, folding to anything other than a re-raise, and folding the flop if it doesn't hit or isn't over top pair. TT and JJ I play for more than set value, but very carefully and cautiously. QQ-AA I play aggressively and am willing to bust out with these hands early, depending on flop. AQ I'm very careful with, often folding pre-flop. AK lately I have been pushing with any significant pot to get pre-flop. If not, 3xBB raise w/ c-bet and throw away thereafter.

Is this considered "early level play"? Or, is this standard SNG super tight play? What areas should I look at expanding into? Should I think about making plays in LP, say at Level 2 where I can pickup 45 chips? I've been thinking about blind stealing on the button figuring it has to be +EV w/ all the fish at the $10s given my position and (likely) post-flop advantage in skill.


Would love to hear any thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the same question.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I think about making plays in LP, say at Level 2 where I can pickup 45 chips? I've been thinking about blind stealing on the button figuring it has to be +EV w/ all the fish at the $10s given my position and (likely) post-flop advantage in skill.


Would love to hear any thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that, as a rule, I don't blind steal until at earliest the 3rd level, often the 4th level. I think the chips that you pick up are not worth the metagame damage you are doing to yourself, as far as stealing blinds further down the road goes.


As for earlier level play... I think it has to do with playing more hands in position (AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, suited connectors), looking to either find a flop you hit hard or find a flop no one else hit at all.

I don't know. I am just a middling, cashout happy 11/22s player. I know that I really enjoy playing these types of hands early (in position) because I like to play a little bit of poker, and I *think* whatever hit my ROI takes from it (and I admit, it likely takes a slight hit -- I'm not that good yet) is more than made up for by hopefully learning to play postflop a bit. Not to mention the fact that, since its the 11s/22s, your ROI can take a nice hit and still do ok =).

[fnord_too]

I 8 table the 55's, and I think early level play is pretty important. I play pretty well post flop, I think. Most people in STT's don't. There is a ton of chips being offered at seriously discounted rates in the first few levels. I would guess that over 90% of the people who bust out in the the first 2-3 levels do so due to bad play (as opposed to bad situations where you cannot help but go broke). All those chips have to go somewhere, and if you are basically folding your way through the first levels (except for pre flop monsters or easy speculative hands like PPs) it's likely not going to you, at least in the volume it should.

I hear others say don't steal at the early levels. Here's the thing, if you have a decent hand and it is folded to you in late position at level 1 or 2, you should raise. If I have a hand like QTs in the CO and it is folded to me, I am raising. I am indifferent to button/sb/bb's action. I have a good (relative) hand and good position. If someone raises, I'll evaluate. If everyone folds, that is fine. If someone calls, I play post flop. Edit for semantics - I would not call this a steal though, it is a value bet.

If there are limpers and I am in position, my over limping standards are pretty broad.

The first couple of rounds, for me, are all about getting into post flop situations where I have good control over my opponents. I stack a lot of people in the first few rounds, and that really adds value later on. If I were at home I would post my results by level, that would probably be pretty interesting (I'd kind of like to look at them now.)

As the levels progress, the amount of actions a hand can have drops until it is all push or fold. It is much easier to play push or fold poker than to play multiple streets. If you play better than your opponents, your edge goes way down as levels advance. The importance of your decisions does go up, but the decisions are way easier. The extra chips you pick up early can have a huge impact here, but losing a few early on missed flops typically won't. The first few rounds are the only time you are in low risk high reward situations, because when the blinds rise the risk is never low.

fnord, great post and thanks.

What is meant by "over limping standards"?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
"a SNG" not "an SNG" ...i passed AP english too

whatever.bump

[/ QUOTE ]

I like "an SnG" too...when I read, I spell it out. "an ess n gee"

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

What is meant by "over limping standards"?

[/ QUOTE ]

standards for limping after one or more players have already limped in. i believe fnord is saying that he's pretty loose on the button/CO in unraised multiway pots.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]


What is meant by "over limping standards"?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are several limpers, I will call with hands I would otherwise muck, like 68o. The reason is that, though it is unlikely I will hit my hand, there is a lot better chance I will get paid off if I do since there are so many opponents. Also, if the opportunity to exploit my position arises, I can usually capitalize on it (though those opportunities usually do not materialize). (Oh, and I don't arbitrarily call with hands like that with multiple limpers; if I am active on other tables I will not since it takes focus to play those sorts of hands.)

One other quick thing, I am still tight in the early going, but I place a high value on position. It's not like I am constantly limping looking to play post flop, but I definitely like to see flops in position against opponents who are bad in ways that make them easily exploitable post flop. (That is, some players weaknesses are not easily exploitable post flop. For example, I don't want to be getting into hands with people who are say tricky/aggressive post flop in the early going because they can hurt me and are not going to be easy to play against post flop. These same players though may be easy to play against in the middle or late stages, for instance if they are say prone to giving free cards with good but vulnerable holdings in the middle stages or fold too much in the later stages. And of course I don't relish playing players with no weaknesses.)

[IHateKeithSmart]

Nice post and reply fnord. Thanks.

[ilya]

Say a guy limps and you know he's passive and straightforward postflop, but on the loose side. It won't be hard to get a good idea of what he has, but taking him off the hand might involve running a bluff on two or even all three streets. In one sense he's the best sort of target since if your read is accurate you can win the chips he calls with as well as whatever is in the pot on the flop. On the other hand, winning that pot from him might require risking a lot of chips. Are you looking to get into pots against this kind of player, or are you mostly interested in seeing flops against someone who's tight on the flop as well as predictable?

[minwoo]

fnord, you can do these post flop plays while 8-TABLING?

Amazing.

[raptor517]

in the smaller buyin games, 55s and below, you get the MOST ev out of playing a perfect large sized blinds and bubble game. basically, perfect push botting. the 'raptor' way, if you want to call it that, is to maximize the value of each individual click of the mouse. this means, that for me to obtain the HIGHEST $/hr, i need to be playing as MANY pushbot tables as i can. we all have our own way. i dont care about playing the early stages. i CAN play the early stages if i get bored and want to 4-8 table, but i choose not to the way i play. for me, its easier, and more +ev to keep adding tables till i go crazy, and folding AJo on the button with one limper. but thats just me. i duno what everyone else said but yes, ev is given up a LOT in the early stages by most 2+2ers. it becomes VERY noticeable in the 109s. holla

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
fnord, you can do these post flop plays while 8-TABLING?

Amazing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not as hard as it sounds. I look for things like players who push way too hard post flop, loose passive post flop players, tight passive players, and the like. Rarely do I do anything subtle or clever. Occasionally I get to do some pot size manipulation.

[ QUOTE ]
in the smaller buyin games, 55s and below, you get the MOST ev out of playing a perfect large sized blinds and bubble game. basically, perfect push botting. the 'raptor' way, if you want to call it that, is to maximize the value of each individual click of the mouse. this means, that for me to obtain the HIGHEST $/hr, i need to be playing as MANY pushbot tables as i can. we all have our own way. i dont care about playing the early stages. i CAN play the early stages if i get bored and want to 4-8 table, but i choose not to the way i play. for me, its easier, and more +ev to keep adding tables till i go crazy, and folding AJo on the button with one limper. but thats just me. i duno what everyone else said but yes, ev is given up a LOT in the early stages by most 2+2ers. it becomes VERY noticeable in the 109s. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
this is impressive...how is your ROI with this 8 table "push bot" strat? And by push bot I am assuming that you mean playing the bubble and high blinds effectively by pushing and gathering pots when all else are tight? Also, what site do you play at? Party? Wondering if the speed of Party has anything to do with the success of this strategy, if that is indeed the site you play at. (Anyone else notice that Party seems faster than others?)

I kind of play the way you do as a rule but will expand to play position and will limp with drawing hands with other limpers (suited and even higher unsuited connectors) that can pay off big. I try to extract big value for very little risk. If I play 10 hands in level 1 and 2 at worst I am down 200 chips or so (unless I get something like AA or KK cracked) before pushapalooza but often I am one of the bigger stacks. You need to take advantage of what people will call you with...people at 55 and below will go all-in with top pair (and even middle pair) or a straight draw. Sometimes you get stuck...yesterday my BB A9 caught an A 9 7 flop eneded up all-in with an AT...you can guess what happened. But crap...I would take those odds any time.

Also, I am a bruin too /images/graemlins/smile.gif You can probably figure out my username on BZ (if you ever go there).

Don't you think you gain a lot of late level equity by not showing down weak hands (even winners) and showing a 12-15% flop %. I use this to steal later rounds when the blinds are higher and the play is much tighter. Those marginal hands become big payoffs in late rounds as well so even a preflop semi bluff can turn into an instant double up.

[Sabrazack]

Im pretty sure you say "an SNG". "a SNG" sounds wierd. "a Sit n Go" is correct however.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think you gain a lot of late level equity by not showing down weak hands (even winners) and showing a 12-15% flop %. I use this to steal later rounds when the blinds are higher and the play is much tighter. Those marginal hands become big payoffs in late rounds as well so even a preflop semi bluff can turn into an instant double up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think my play hurts my steals later on, but stacking someone early may result in me surviving a hand later on, and that is huge. Also, I am not seeing that many flops, a lot less than I would in a ring game, but I definitely look for spots to pick up chips early on and welcome post flop play. I need to consult pokertracker to see how successful I am in the early rounds, I know I am in the green but I don't know how much.

[A_PLUS]

The key to this at the lower buy-ins, is the risk/reward oh playing early.

Leaving 150 chips on the table in L1-L3 is always bad. Leaving 150 on the table when the bubble play is very poor and you have higher equity than your smallish bubble stack suggests isnt that bad. This late game edge deteriorates as you move up in limits, so your actual equity is pretty close to what your ICM equity would suggest. So, leaving 150 chips on the table is much worse.

Given the higher risk associated with more post flop early level play (it is tougher to put your opponents on a hand, they fold less), coupled with the higher than normal $EV you have when it gets down to 5 players, means you need to be pretty damn good early on for this to be worthwhile.

As you move up, your CEV from early play isnt as high, but the risk is less, as well as the fact that optimal push-fold poker doesnt gain much $EV against other players players playing similar strategies.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
I need to consult pokertracker to see how successful I am in the early rounds, I know I am in the green but I don't know how much.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would be very interested if you did this and reported back your findings.

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of play the way you do as a rule but will expand to play position and will limp with drawing hands with other limpers (suited and even higher unsuited connectors) that can pay off big. I try to extract big value for very little risk. If I play 10 hands in level 1 and 2 at worst I am down 200 chips or so (unless I get something like AA or KK cracked) before pushapalooza but often I am one of the bigger stacks. You need to take advantage of what people will call you with...people at 55 and below will go all-in with top pair (and even middle pair) or a straight draw. Sometimes you get stuck...yesterday my BB A9 caught an A 9 7 flop eneded up all-in with an AT...you can guess what happened. But crap...I would take those odds any time.

Also, I am a bruin too /images/graemlins/smile.gif You can probably figure out my username on BZ (if you ever go there).

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't been to BZ in a LONG time. I'm a BRO myself. Going to the SDSU game on Saturday. Ah, another football season. 9-2?

I think I'm going to stick with super tight play for awhile and keep working on mastering Level 4 and beyond (bubble) play. That's certainly more important for me at this point. Once I feel I am playing really strong late, then I'll look to expand my game in earlier levels, particularly if I move up to $33s and beyond.

Yeah I can't go to the SDSU game...I live in Seattle and my dad and I go to 1 game a year and it ain't gonna be sdsu.

I was hoping for 9-2 until Kevin Brown went out and Ben Olson broke his hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I can't go to the SDSU game...I live in Seattle and my dad and I go to 1 game a year and it ain't gonna be sdsu.

I was hoping for 9-2 until Kevin Brown went out and Ben Olson broke his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which game are you going to attend?

[Moonsugar]

I make so many chips in the early levels of 55 it is sick. Early play is very important, and gets more important as you move up cause the guys dont make near as many endgame errors.

[fnord_too]

(slightly off since I have not imported tourney summaries from tonight, ~20 that I wasn't first or second in)

For August: 426 50+5
I'm not as loose early as I thought, I guess I selectively remember the times I play loose because I see something I want to exploit.

Totals all levels
VPIP 20.11, pfr 10.49, BB/Hand .02 Total won 204K TC
From 15/30 down:
15.45 3.25 .06BB +14.6K
14.05 4.15 .01BB +4.8K
15.12 7.22 .00BB +1.3K
16.85 11.54 .00BB +1K
23.4 15.93 .01BB +12K
30.69 18.74 .02BB +51.7K
38.55 21.87 .01BB +23K
42.94 25.49 .01BB +8.8K
50.95 27.96 .08BB +80.4K

I need to look at these carefully and figure out how to address those middle stages. Here are finishes:
1 63 14.79%
2 54 12.68%
3 42 9.86%
4 54 12.68%
5 54 12.68%
6 59 13.85%
7 39 9.15%
8 26 6.10%
9 19 4.46%
10 16 3.76%

To give an idea how the 15 or 20 tournies I need to get summaries on affect the numbers, my ROI for August is I'm pretty sure 16.5-17%, but it shows 19.72% right now. (I know, I could have imported the things in the time it took me to type all this, this was supposed to be quick though, I want a beer and to chill damnit.)