ack what do i do [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

silkyslim

08-30-2005, 06:02 PM

Villian is a TAG. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:04 PM

Why in hell are you raising this flop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The answer to the title of your post is: "Don't do that."

jt1

08-30-2005, 06:08 PM

Cap PF and call flop, turn and river.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:09 PM

I'll offer a more constructive post:

1. Don't raise the flop. You'll get three-bet by all the overpairs and considering BB three-bet OOP those are all very likely.

2. If you don't raise the flop, you'll be getting 7.5-1 on a turn call. Since you have 6 outs at most, and many of those are dirty, you really can't call the turn for draw value only. Decide whether you think villain would ever play an inferior hand this way. There is not nearly enough value in calling down all the way to chop with the other AK. So I probably just fold the turn unimproved against most players.

2a. As played, I guess you have to call on the turn because the two extra bets that went in on the flop may push the odds over to your side... meh. I might fold anyway. It's close.

3. Damn you got played on the river. You ahve to bet and I think you have to call the check-raise. Expect to see AA or another AK a whole bunch.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cap PF and call flop, turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you like capping pre-flop in a heads-up pot against a BB three-bettor?

I'm not saying it's automatically bad, but it's certainly not automatic. Many opponents would only three-bet here with like JJ+ and AK.

The hand between Jason_T and Sfer had some discussion of why capping against a pre-flop blind three-bettor with AK is probably a bad idea.

08-30-2005, 06:13 PM

Diamond draw on the turn, Deranged?. He's got eight clean outs, a board-pairing diamond that's probably still good and five dirty outs.

I agree tho, call the flop, call down from there. I don't think you can bet this river without making the diamond draw. Just call with the paired ace.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Diamond draw on the turn, Deranged?. He's got eight clean outs, a board-pairing diamond that's probably still good and five dirty outs.

I agree tho, call the flop, call down from there. I don't think you can bet this river without making the diamond draw. Just call with the paired ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah... obviously. You're not going anywhere on the turn. Didn't see that.

Without the diamond draw turn's a fold in my opinion. With it it's a trivially easy call.

I read bad. Pre-flop, flop, river opinions still hold.

cwsiggy

08-30-2005, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2a. As played, I guess you have to call on the turn because the two extra bets that went in on the flop may push the odds over to your side... meh. I might fold anyway. It's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh - don't you have the nut flush draw here to auto call the turn?

never mind - just saw your new response after posting this- they crossed

peterchi

08-30-2005, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

1. Don't raise the flop. You'll get three-bet by all the overpairs and considering BB three-bet OOP those are all very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you just fixed one of my leaks. I owe you a 40oz.

jt1

08-30-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why in hell are you raising this flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero only called the 3bet preflop so he could pop the flop. He is guarding against AQ and small PP. I think worrying about a coordinated board HU against a PFRR is a bit much. After villian RR then Hero knows villian either has a set or overpair. Hero has odds to take one off.

On the river, folding to a CR against a TAG is risky so I'd call.

08-30-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is a TAG. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, Call the re-raise (Flame on playas) He is a TAG and will be OOP for the rest of the Hand, his re-raise standards may not be as wide as one could hope.

Call flop - A fold here could be fine as well, You have a small pot and are still unsure as to what you are up against.

Raise the Turn (represent the made Flush or straight) You have outs if he calls. It may also cause him to check the River so You are better putting the money in here.

Bet the River - He is more likely to have KK than AA at this point (you still rep the flush and you may be good anyway.)

LLL

jt1

08-30-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you like capping pre-flop in a heads-up pot against a BB three-bettor?

I'm not saying it's automatically bad, but it's certainly not automatic. Many opponents would only three-bet here with like JJ+ and AK.

The hand between Jason_T and Sfer had some discussion of why capping against a pre-flop blind three-bettor with AK is probably a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mind providing the link to that thread?

I cap because TAG should know that MP3 is TAG also and MP3 can open raise with any number of hands so BB can re-raise with AQ and any PP. It also dictates the rest of the hand. Only a legitimate 3-bet hand will lead the flop after being capped. But I'd like to read the thread.

jt1

08-30-2005, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the Turn (represent the made Flush or straight) You have outs if he calls. It may also cause him to check the River so You are better putting the money in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB has shown some serious strengths so he won't be folding and there is no need to get a free showdown.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why in hell are you raising this flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero only called the 3bet preflop so he could pop the flop. He is guarding against AQ and small PP. I think worrying about a coordinated board HU against a PFRR is a bit much. After villian RR then Hero knows villian either has a set or overpair. Hero has odds to take one off.

On the river, folding to a CR against a TAG is risky so I'd call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising this flop is really really really really not good.

Q: How often is the BB three-betting with a worse A?

A: Not often.

Q: How often is BB three-betting pre-flop with a pair TT or better?

A. Often.

Q: How often is BB three-betting our flop raise with an overpair considering we didn't cap pre-flop?

A: A whole hell of a lot.

Q: Did the flop in any material way help our hand?

A: Hell no.

What is possibly good about raising this flop? Free card play is bad here since the hands we're looking to draw out on are three-betting so often (remember, a free-card play needs to work 2/3 of the time or else we're losing money). Any arguments that the flop raise is for value is seriously misguided, as even crappy players have tight ranges for three-betting out of the blinds.

If we thought that there was value in raising this flop because of our read on our opponent capping pre-flop is a much better option. Waiting to "pop" villain on the flop after the flop totally misses us makes no sense.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is a TAG. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, Call the re-raise (Flame on playas) He is a TAG and will be OOP for the rest of the Hand, his re-raise standards may not be as wide as one could hope.

Call flop - A fold here could be fine as well, You have a small pot and are still unsure as to what you are up against.

Raise the Turn (represent the made Flush or straight) You have outs if he calls. It may also cause him to check the River so You are better putting the money in here.

Bet the River - He is more likely to have KK than AA at this point (you still rep the flush and you may be good anyway.)

LLL

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn sucks seriously.

People need to stop making frivolous raises against villain's who obviously hold good hands!

If we raise this turn a taggish opponent will very often three-bet with his overpair. He is very unlikely to fold any overpair. Getting three-bet when we're still drawing sucks. Raising for a free showdown really doesn't apply since we're quite likely to be three-bet and villain is unlikely to fold.

We should be tending to play more passively on the turn when we pick up a ton of outs, not spewing chips when we're likely still drawing.

silkyslim

08-30-2005, 06:31 PM

im not comfortable capping pf. I would like to see a thorough analysis on the pros/cons when/wheres of this play. I agree with calling the flop, calling the turn. On the river I thought he had a lower PP so I had to value bet. Dont know what to make of his raise so I called getting 11-1. What could he be getting fancy with that I beat? I was afraid I might miss the split.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you like capping pre-flop in a heads-up pot against a BB three-bettor?

I'm not saying it's automatically bad, but it's certainly not automatic. Many opponents would only three-bet here with like JJ+ and AK.

The hand between Jason_T and Sfer had some discussion of why capping against a pre-flop blind three-bettor with AK is probably a bad idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mind providing the link to that thread?

I cap because TAG should know that MP3 is TAG also and MP3 can open raise with any number of hands so BB can re-raise with AQ and any PP. It also dictates the rest of the hand. Only a legitimate 3-bet hand will lead the flop after being capped. But I'd like to read the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

JT,

I just bumped it to page one. It's called 20/40 against Sfer or something like that.

Dopey

08-30-2005, 06:36 PM

I am going to disagree with some of your points, as I don't mind the way the OP played the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll offer a more constructive post:

1. Don't raise the flop. You'll get three-bet by all the overpairs and considering BB three-bet OOP those are all very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

How bad is the raise? If your going to continue with the hand, raising has to be a consideration

BB 3-bet preflop on what looked like a late position steal. Isn't a continuation bet by the BB mandatory especially on that flop?
You raising the flop gives you info on where you stand in the hand, represents the same range that you put BB on and gives you potential free card options on the turn.
If you don't have the backdoor nut-flush draw I don't raise the flop but with it I don't think the raise is nessecarily wrong.

[ QUOTE ]

2. If you don't raise the flop, you'll be getting 7.5-1 on a turn call. Since you have 6 outs at most, and many of those are dirty, you really can't call the turn for draw value only. Decide whether you think villain would ever play an inferior hand this way. There is not nearly enough value in calling down all the way to chop with the other AK. So I probably just fold the turn unimproved against most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't raise the flop you will only be getting 5.25-1 on the call.
I tend to agree with folding unimproved in most cases, but having raised the flop makes it an easier fold.

[ QUOTE ]

2a. As played, I guess you have to call on the turn because the two extra bets that went in on the flop may push the odds over to your side... meh. I might fold anyway. It's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you missing the nut flush draw? Im not folding this turn getting 5.25-1. After the flop raise your getting 7.5-1 its an easy call.

[ QUOTE ]

3. Damn you got played on the river. You ahve to bet and I think you have to call the check-raise. Expect to see AA or another AK a whole bunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, OP got played. But you are chopping enough and beating an overplayed AxQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or AxJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif enough to call.
And yes you have to bet when checked to and I don't think its that close.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 06:39 PM

I did miss the nut flush draw first time around. Obviously we're calling the turn.

Notice a couple of things:

1. BB is less likely to be three-betting light against a late position stealer because: a) we weren't in CO or the button; b) villain was in the BB and not the SB, so there's little tactical reason for a raise.

2. If we thought that BB was three-betting light, capping pre-flop makes much more sense than raising a total miss flop.

hobbsmann

08-30-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BB 3-bet preflop on what looked like a late position steal. Isn't a continuation bet by the BB mandatory especially on that flop?
You raising the flop gives you info on where you stand in the hand, represents the same range that you put BB on and gives you potential free card options on the turn.
If you don't have the backdoor nut-flush draw I don't raise the flop but with it I don't think the raise is nessecarily wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you are still squarely behind the 3-betting range of a player in the blinds. Furthermore you aren't accomplishing anything like W. pointed out and are much more likely just to be 3-bet on the flop or donked into on the turn. You are only really ahead of AQ, and slight ahead of AK, here and letting a hand like that keep beting is not a bad thing for you.

Calling can be good sometimes. This is important.

jt1

08-30-2005, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. If we thought that BB was three-betting light, capping pre-flop makes much more sense than raising a total miss flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

We agree that raising the flop is dumb. I was just answering your question of why Hero did it.

The Sfer hand is very useful, but I think it shows that you should cap AKo in position. UTG got a free card (he chose not to use it) because he capped. I believe the whole essence of the thread shows that checking the turn and calling the river is a bad play.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. If we thought that BB was three-betting light, capping pre-flop makes much more sense than raising a total miss flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

We agree that raising the flop is dumb. I was just answering your question of why Hero did it.

The Sfer hand is very useful, but I think it shows that you should cap AKo in position. UTG got a free card (he chose not to use it) because he capped. I believe the whole essence of the thread shows that checking the turn and calling the river is a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a couple of comments in there (I posted one of them prompted by someone else who I don't remember right now)... mentioning why capping would be bad. Much of the discussion pertains to why it's bad against a tough, thinking opponent though.

If you think BB is three-betting light then capping pre-flop is a much better line than raising the flop.

brazilio

08-30-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why do you like capping pre-flop in a heads-up pot against a BB three-bettor?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm open raising in MP like this and I get 3-bet, I'm capping a large amount of time here. Most TAGs understand position well enough to think we're raising lightly.

W. Deranged

08-30-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why do you like capping pre-flop in a heads-up pot against a BB three-bettor?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm open raising in MP like this and I get 3-bet, I'm capping a large amount of time here. Most TAGs understand position well enough to think we're raising lightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I am much more likely to be capping this against a late position three-bettor than against the BB.