An explanation to NOT push preflop..

[raptor517]

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4 players left in sng...blinds at 100/200

Hero 1865
villian 2085
other 6110
other 3440

Hero in BB dealt QJo

2 folds, sb limps

flop is 5h As Qh

sb pushes all in....hero calls

Hero shows QJ
sb shows 10 7

Turn 10

river 7

[/ QUOTE ]
i have recently slowed down on my mad pushing from the bb to a small blind complete. earlier in my life you could not find a more aggro person in this spot. however, people started limp calling my shoves with hands as bad as K7. effectively 'trapping' with K7. idiots.

also.. why is everyone so scared to play a flop? i mean.. does it really suck that bad to check here and take a flop? QJo isnt exactly the greatest hand aipf. take a flop, let him lost everything with his godamned K7 on my J72 flop. also.. you could argue that QJ is a good heads up FLOP hand, a hand you dont mind seeing a flop with. i duno, i just hate betting 5x the pot preflop now heads up. i dont mind taking a flop off and winning the pot with minimal risk, or taking the slight loss.

now listen, to all you naysayers, i say this: IM NOT SAYING DONT PUSH PREFLOP. im offering an objective view at an alternative play. the much underused 'check'. old raptor shoved all day. new raptor sees extra ev in taking a flop. try it out, might end up liking it. holla

[pooh74]

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4 players left in sng...blinds at 100/200

Hero 1865
villian 2085
other 6110
other 3440

Hero in BB dealt QJo

2 folds, sb limps

flop is 5h As Qh

sb pushes all in....hero calls

Hero shows QJ
sb shows 10 7

Turn 10

river 7

[/ QUOTE ]
i have recently slowed down on my mad pushing from the bb to a small blind complete. earlier in my life you could not find a more aggro person in this spot. however, people started limp calling my shoves with hands as bad as K7. effectively 'trapping' with K7. idiots.

also.. why is everyone so scared to play a flop? i mean.. does it really suck that bad to check here and take a flop? QJo isnt exactly the greatest hand aipf. take a flop, let him lost everything with his godamned K7 on my J72 flop. also.. you could argue that QJ is a good heads up FLOP hand, a hand you dont mind seeing a flop with. i duno, i just hate betting 5x the pot preflop now heads up. i dont mind taking a flop off and winning the pot with minimal risk, or taking the slight loss.

now listen, to all you naysayers, i say this: IM NOT SAYING DONT PUSH PREFLOP. im offering an objective view at an alternative play. the much underused 'check'. old raptor shoved all day. new raptor sees extra ev in taking a flop. try it out, might end up liking it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TheSalche]

in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

I agree that QJo, and all other connectors for that matter, are a great hand to see the flop with HU. My problem is that HU short stacked, it's often best to be first to act, especially covered on the bubble. That's why I don't think we want to push this preflop.

Example:

Option 1:
Hero is SB
Hero completes with QJo
Villain checks

Flop: KA2

Hero pushes
Villain folds

Option 2:
Hero is BB
Villain completes
Hero checks his QJo

Flop: KA2

Villain pushes
Hero folds

IMHO, it's dangerous to see a flop HU short stacked and in position, especially when covered.

[ZeroPointMachine]

I like this play because it tells the SB that he can see a cheap flop. Often this leads him to make this same limp later when the blinds are much more significant and you can step on his throat. Obviously the circumstances neccesary for this to happen won't fall into place every tourney, but in the long run I think it is very profitable.

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in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

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Wonderful. You're on the bubble covered with AJo, you check your BB to trap, flop comes 792 two-suited and villain pushes. You're only making a pair 1/3 of the time, and (without ICMing it) you can't even call if you the flop comes 9T2 when you've got QJo and you think your outs are clean. You want the blinds here, IMHO.

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I like this play because it tells the SB that he can see a cheap flop. Often this leads him to make this same limp later when the blinds are much more significant and you can step on his throat. Obviously the circumstances neccesary for this to happen won't fall into place every tourney, but in the long run I think it is very profitable.

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I do agree with this argument though.

[TheSalche]

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in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderful. You're on the bubble covered with AJo, you check your BB to trap, flop comes 792 two-suited and villain pushes. You're only making a pair 1/3 of the time, and (without ICMing it) you can't even call if you the flop comes 9T2 when you've got QJo and you think your outs are clean. You want the blinds here, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a trap so much as it is a way to see a cheap flop. What if the SB is trying to trap you with QQ or KK? You push into him from BB and he calls it, boom you're out on the bubble when you could've gotten away from the hand.

[valenzuela]

I think the real problem comes when you decide to see a flop with players yet to act, deciding to see a flop when ure on the BB is ok..even if you have to call a min-bet is ok( for instance with 10x the BB and 77)

[Freudian]

Turn should have been a J and river a K. That is the way it works where I play.

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in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderful. You're on the bubble covered with AJo, you check your BB to trap, flop comes 792 two-suited and villain pushes. You're only making a pair 1/3 of the time, and (without ICMing it) you can't even call if you the flop comes 9T2 when you've got QJo and you think your outs are clean. You want the blinds here, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a trap so much as it is a way to see a cheap flop. What if the SB is trying to trap you with QQ or KK? You push into him from BB and he calls it, boom you're out on the bubble when you could've gotten away from the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really rare occurrence--much rarer than missing the flop entirely with AJ, which happens 2/3 of the time.

[raptor517]

why do you feel a need to push? why not bet like 250-300? is that totally unacceptable? holla

[raptor517]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

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what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

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why do you feel a need to push? why not bet like 250-300? is that totally unacceptable? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I've been under the impression that at 33+ this is a bad move because they'll just push you in with any two, but I'm guessing this is wrong given your reply. What do you think about my argument in general, though?

[pooh74]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

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what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

joke...

"too bad villain got lucky" I was being sarcastic! Did they stop teaching that in HS? /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Apathy]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

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what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

In your Bad beat original post they went runner-runner to beat you ehich is what he is reffering to.

As for the hand, with those stack sizes and only 4 left I will often take the flop here unless I feel that pushing will have meta-game benefits for the remainder of the tourney (i.e. more walk-overs).

[raptor517]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

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what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

joke...

"too bad villain got lucky" I was being sarcastic! Did they stop teaching that in HS? /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

that wanst my post. i took it from another thread. i dont make bad beat posts like that. holla

[raptor517]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

In your Bad beat original post they went runner-runner to beat you ehich is what he is reffering to.

As for the hand, with those stack sizes and only 4 left I will often take the flop here unless I feel that pushing will have meta-game benefits for the remainder of the tourney (i.e. more walk-overs).

[/ QUOTE ]

same to you apathetic batch. that wanst my post. i took it from another thread. i dont make bad beat posts like that. thankyou for agreeing with a check. it must be something with the level difference from the 11s-33s and the 55s-215s. holla

[pooh74]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

joke...

"too bad villain got lucky" I was being sarcastic! Did they stop teaching that in HS? /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

that wanst my post. i took it from another thread. i dont make bad beat posts like that. holla

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That counts as a "vicarious bad beat post"...u should know better.

[The Yugoslavian]

Did people start calling you when you were playing in the 109s and 215s? I'd imagine there, you really need to vary your blind play depending on who your opponent is. The thing is, in the 55s and especially lower, your opposition is fairly clueless to what you normally do and only after you push to their completion once or twice *in a row* will they realize what's going on.

In the situation you describe as a general rule I see pushing as more profitable than checking and playing a flop (this can be also be profitable but less so).

Yugoslav

[pooh74]

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I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? i suck out on you or something? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

In your Bad beat original post they went runner-runner to beat you ehich is what he is reffering to.

As for the hand, with those stack sizes and only 4 left I will often take the flop here unless I feel that pushing will have meta-game benefits for the remainder of the tourney (i.e. more walk-overs).

[/ QUOTE ]

same to you apathetic batch. that wanst my post. i took it from another thread. i dont make bad beat posts like that. thankyou for agreeing with a check. it must be something with the level difference from the 11s-33s and the 55s-215s. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW...I also agree with the check, I love to see a flop with this hand here. Pushing every SB completion is just no fun anyway.

[adanthar]

In bigger MTT's, one thing I've started doing lately is making some aggro blind plays and then open completing, say, A7 or K9 or something.

I've had more people raise my Axx/Kxx minbet with air and then push on the turn in the last two weeks than I can count. Because, you know, I completed so I can't have an ace.

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In bigger MTT's, one thing I've started doing lately is making some aggro blind plays and then open completing, say, A7 or K9 or something.

I've had more people raise my Axx/Kxx minbet with air and then push on the turn in the last two weeks than I can count. Because, you know, I completed so I can't have an ace.

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How big of a stack do you need for this?

[SCfuji]

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i dont make bad beat posts like that.

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30 in a row. holllllaaaaa!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bco1/75]

I think it goes without saying, but it constant pushing depends on whether you think you can out play your opponent after the flop...Hopefully most people should be playing at a level where their skills are equivalent, thus they would not need to push very often and can rake bigger pots by doing so.

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I think it goes without saying, but it constant pushing depends on whether you think you can out play your opponent after the flop...Hopefully most people should be playing at a level where their skills are equivalent, thus they would not need to push very often and can rake bigger pots by doing so.

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With these few chips, outplaying's pretty difficult. If both of you make a decent hand, this is gonna be all in, and if neither of you do, first to bet wins. Hopefully people are playing at a level where their skills are better so they can win.

[Irieguy]

I think pushing here is far superior to any other alternative.

I get "trapped" with K4, T9, etc. here, too... but a play doesn't need to be 100% successful to be hugely +EV.

If they fold here >70% of the time (which they do), you will experience runs of SNGs where you get called 5,6,7 times in a row and lose, or whatever.

Whenever there's a pot sized at 25% of your stack, and your opponent is more than 50% likely to fold... you should be making that bet/raise.

Raptor, you know you are allowed to go back to school without forgetting how to play SNGs. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Irieguy

[1C5]

I say in my experience Irie, they fold closer to 90% of the time.

[raptor517]

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I say in my experience Irie, they fold closer to 90% of the time.

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this is just wrong. i just to 'trapped' in a 22 on the bubble by K2 for a 4300 chip pot. yay. dont get me wrong though, i dont think shoving is a bad play.. but you should consider taking a flop sometimes. holla

[benfranklin]

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in the 55s and especially lower, your opposition is fairly clueless to what you normally do and only after you push to their completion once or twice *in a row* will they realize what's going on.

In the situation you describe as a general rule I see pushing as more profitable than checking and playing a flop (this can be also be profitable but less so).

Yugoslav

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A good-size raise but not a push here can often accomplish the same thing while delaying the point when "they realize what's going on". At the lower limits, after repeated pushes, opponents are more likely to loosen their calling standards and call or push just to show you you can't bully them.

Depending on all the usual "it depends" stuff, a raise may imply a more powerful hand than a push. A raise is especially scary to opponents after a couple of pushes. Many low limit players will just raise here with a monster, hoping for a call or raise. If you are going to push with air, a raise can look stronger in the right circumstances.

[Gramps]

If you insta-push any time someone completes at the later levels, people figure it out and adjust (he pushed, he effectively hasn't looked at his cards yet/I'm pissed off at this aggro biatch, I'm making a stand). A better strategy is to pass it up when you don't need it so much, and save that play for when those chips are very valuable (and you have some "stealing street cred."). I hear people say sometimes on this forum that your image doesn't matter in these things, but in SB vs. BB play it does IME - people remember how you've played them (at least in that particular SNG), and will make pissed-off calls if you keep running them over (often unknowningly making a proper calling adjustment to their opponent's unchecked aggression).

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If you insta-push any time someone completes at the later levels, people figure it out and adjust (he pushed, he effectively hasn't looked at his cards yet/I'm pissed off at this aggro biatch, I'm making a stand). A better strategy is to pass it up when you don't need it so much, and save that play for when those chips are very valuable (and you have some "stealing street cred."). I hear people say sometimes on this forum that your image doesn't matter in these things, but in SB vs. BB play it does IME - people remember how you've played them (at least in that particular SNG), and will make pissed-off calls if you keep running them over (often unknowningly making a proper calling adjustment to their opponent's unchecked aggression).

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If you do this twice, many players are smart enough (even in the $5.50s) to start folding to their SB unless they plan on calling an all in. This gives you their SB a large % of the time, and lets you avoid tangling with a huge hand when they do decide to limp.

[Gramps]

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If you do this twice, many players are smart enough (even in the $5.50s) to start folding to their SB unless they plan on calling an all in. This gives you their SB a large % of the time, and lets you avoid tangling with a huge hand when they do decide to limp.

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And while this will happen with the more passive players in the 109s/215s, more often it will turn an SB limper into an SB raiser/pusher...so, as always, it depends on one's opponent(s)...

[curtains]

oh raptor, you need to get a bit more scientific !

[benfranklin]

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If you insta-push any time someone completes at the later levels, people figure it out and adjust (he pushed, he effectively hasn't looked at his cards yet/I'm pissed off at this aggro biatch, I'm making a stand).

[/ QUOTE ]

This has implications the other way too. If it's short-handed and I'm first to act in the SB (especially HU) and the blinds are still reasonable, I will often complete with rags a couple of times, intending to insta-fold. This "trains" the BB to raise or push into my completion. I can then trap him by just completing with a monster, and then he raises/pushes where he would normally fold to a push.

[Newt_Buggs]

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If you do this twice, many players are smart enough (even in the $5.50s) to start folding to their SB unless they plan on calling an all in. This gives you their SB a large % of the time, and lets you avoid tangling with a huge hand when they do decide to limp.

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And while this will happen with the more passive players in the 109s/215s, more often it will turn an SB limper into an SB raiser/pusher...so, as always, it depends on one's opponent(s)...

[/ QUOTE ]
IME this happens a lot more than them folding their SB