Not another crybaby...

Here it is folks... yet another bad beat story... I'm not complaining, just looking for advice.

$300 - $500 restricted buy-in NL ring game. Loose game, standard bring in bet is about $20... $5 & $5 blinds at the Bike. The small blind is a loose player that makes it $20 everytime there is multiple limpers like clock work. To my left is an ultra dumb calling station (As already called off $1,000 with top and middle pair).

Hero- Limp with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Four Limpers, Small blind makes it $20 (like clock work)

Hero- Limp re-raises to $85; calling station and small blind call.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero bets $120... call; call

Turn: 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Small blind folds out of turn, Hero bets $140, calling station calls (at this point I put him on K-rag, maybe a club draw).

River: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero checks to the calling station hoping he missed his draw and goes all in. Calling station goes all in for an additional $170.00

Hero calls... Calling station show 4 6 OFFSUITE for the nuts straight.

Any suggestions? I know this is just "another bad beat" story... but I don't see how I can get away from this hand against a calling station. Against any descent player I would give them credit for a set... or maybe turning two pair... HELP

[InchoateHand]

You could quit playing poker.

[flawless_victory]

is it not obvious to you now that you shouldve bet waaaaay more on the turn, like maybe, all your chips?

[maranello11]

Announce ALL-IN on the TURN!

I totally understand pushing all in on the turn if I knew exactly what he had... the problem is that he is an absurd calling station. I wanted to "chip away" at him $100 - $150 at a time if he had something like KJ, K-rag or Q-9 of Clubs.

[James282]

If he is an absurd calling station, he'll call you all in no matter what.
-James

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally understand pushing all in on the turn if I knew exactly what he had... the problem is that he is an absurd calling station. I wanted to "chip away" at him $100 - $150 at a time if he had something like KJ, K-rag or Q-9 of Clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that you are giving any 8-out plus draw the odds to call. The great thing about players like this is that they will often a big bet with a weak made hand. Take advantage of that and push the turn. It's not even that big of a bet. A push is way smaller than the pot at that point.

You seem outraged that he played FOUR SIX against your aces. FOUR SIX makes straights just like two clubs makes flushes, they both can crack aces, and the straight is better disguised, although most people who bet this hand like you did would payoff the flush with angry words about preflop hand selection just as easily as the straight. Yes, the calling station (with ~600?) shouldn't have called 80 more with 64, even given the dead money in the pot, the likelihood others might come along, and the flashing aces sign on your forehead. But, hands like these crack hands like aces all the time. It's a part of no limit and something you have to be aware of when you find yourself with aces on a drawing board.

You bet less than half the pot on the flop and way less on the turn. He practically had odds for the five-outer weak pair you thought he had. Once he saw the flop, with 6-8 outs, his calls were correct given the size of your bet, the size of the pot and the likely implied odds. Maybe he would have overpaid for his draw, but we'll never know since you didn't make him.

Learned from TV... I totally understand your comment... I will concede that I should have bet more on the flop.

However, a limp reraiser usually shows a lot of strength, I just can't imagine any descent-to below average player calling with 4-6 off... if it was suited I could definately see making a case for trying break me with straight/flush draw, but come-on.

PS... had a club or additional broadway card come on the river... I was completely ready to fold... the three lookded super safe for me.

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
PS... had a club or additional broadway card come on the river... I was completely ready to fold... the three lookded super safe for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why people call raises with 64. But, in this case, the stacks were not deep enough to warrant it.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
PS... had a club or additional broadway card come on the river... I was completely ready to fold... the three lookded super safe for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes your turn play atrocious if you were going to fold for less than a pot-sized bet.

[integrate]

Bet way too small on the turn. $120 is nothing relative to the pot and letting everyone draw out.

Oops. Just noticed that everyone else had already said the sme exact thing.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]

This makes your turn play atrocious if you were going to fold for less than a pot-sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't what makes his turn bet atrocious but it certainly compounds the atrocity.

[integrate]

Yes, you're right the limp reraise says strength, so he could be putting you a high pocket pair. When someone does this when I'm in the game, I'll call (depending on the odds/bet) just waiting to crack aces when I hit two pair or better.

I love it when people make it obvious that they have a strong hand.

[vapourtrail]

hi here is how i would play it differently:

i would bet more preflop.
i would bet more on the flop.
i would bet more on the turn.

this is how you beat calling stations.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

This makes your turn play atrocious if you were going to fold for less than a pot-sized bet.



This isn't what makes his turn bet atrocious but it certainly compounds the atrocity.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh - very true.

[Huskiez]

First off, the calling station might just be gambling and having fun. I don't know why it's so hard to understand, but some people like to gamble and don't think about winning money all the time. Do us a favor and realize this. And don't bitch when people start playing bad hands (like 4 6 OFFSUITE) and crack your aces. This is how you make money.

[ QUOTE ]
PS... had a club or additional broadway card come on the river... I was completely ready to fold... the three lookded super safe for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it appears that Villain, according to this logic, had 4 8's, 4 3's, 4 Q's, 4 J's, 2 A's (?), and 7 other clubs, for a total of 25 outs. Definitely worth a call.

Even if he thinks that just clubs are outs, he has 15 outs, which still deserves a call on the turn.

So really, Villain is justified in his postflop play because of your underbets. However, I doubt he was thinking this because most people who play 64o for a limp reraise are just having fun.

[cero_z]

Sup Biatch,

You misplayed this hand on every street. You also didn't give stack sizes for everyone, most importantly for yourself.

Pre-flop, the limp-reraise was good, but you should've raised it more (I would've made it about 130). There are 2 kinds of errors you can make in this spot: betting too much given the blinds and pot size, so you don't win a big enough pot, and betting too little given the stack sizes, so you announce your hand and give players an opportunity to correctly draw against you. You made error #2, though you lucked out in that your opponents took the idea of drawing out on you too far pre-flop.

On the flop, you didn't bet enough. With calling stations and something like 280 in the pot, you should've bet about 200. 140 makes it harder to tell what they're playing, if they choose to call or raise. Again, though, it depends on the stack sizes; the bigger the stacks here, the worse this mistake is.

On the turn, you should've bet at least the size of the pot. 2 players have called your flop bet, so you should expect one of them to have a flush draw. Also, they've each put in 200 or so, so they're likely to call a much bigger bet than 140. 140 is not nearly enough--if you turned a set of K's faceup after that bet, an open-end straight draw or a flush draw would be right to call. You're committed, and there's over 600 in the pot, so you should bet the whole 310 that the guy has.

The check on the river is also terrible against a calling station with only 170 left. He's a calling station; he's not more likely to bluff the river than call off his last chips. As you said, the 3 looked safe, and you were glad to call, so you should've bet it.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Sup Biatch,

You misplayed this hand on every street. You also didn't give stack sizes for everyone, most importantly for yourself.

Pre-flop, the limp-reraise was good, but you should've raised it more (I would've made it about 130). There are 2 kinds of errors you can make in this spot: betting too much given the blinds and pot size, so you don't win a big enough pot, and betting too little given the stack sizes, so you announce your hand and give players an opportunity to correctly draw against you. You made error #2, though you lucked out in that your opponents took the idea of drawing out on you too far pre-flop.

On the flop, you didn't bet enough. With calling stations and something like 280 in the pot, you should've bet about 200. 140 makes it harder to tell what they're playing, if they choose to call or raise. Again, though, it depends on the stack sizes; the bigger the stacks here, the worse this mistake is.

On the turn, you should've bet at least the size of the pot. 2 players have called your flop bet, so you should expect one of them to have a flush draw. Also, they've each put in 200 or so, so they're likely to call a much bigger bet than 140. 140 is not nearly enough--if you turned a set of K's faceup after that bet, an open-end straight draw or a flush draw would be right to call. You're committed, and there's over 600 in the pot, so you should bet the whole 310 that the guy has.

The check on the river is also terrible against a calling station with only 170 left. He's a calling station; he's not more likely to bluff the river than call off his last chips. As you said, the 3 looked safe, and you were glad to call, so you should've bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I'm however, going to warn you about your location: doodleky's an ex-cop, watch out!

[Imperial]

Preflop: good
Folp: bet 250
Turn: move in.

[hit_the_set]

I really hate allin bets from calling stations. It usually means they have a great hand. Its a bad beat. But If you have reads on this player, you can get away from it.