How should I have played this differently?

[DiceyPlay]

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

I would fold the flop. Everything else looks ok.

What is your read on your opp?

Assuming unknown, you've gotta bet that turn after the c/r on flop.

After that, call a raise, and then play it the same.

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the flop. Everything else looks ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think hero gives up too much folding the flop. There are 7SB's in the pot and UTG did not raise preflop, so while he could have a King he could also very likely have an 8 with a lower kicker.

I like the check raise on the flop.

[Argus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I would fold the flop. Everything else looks ok.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terrible advice. If you fold this flop you hate money. I'd bet the turn after the flop check/raise, since there are plenty of worse hands to call you, and not too many better ones. You also have plenty of outs even against trips. I really like the bet/3-bet line on the river.

[peterchi]

I like the flop c/r.

Definitely lead this turn afterwards. If you weren't already behind, you certainly aren't now.

Since you check-called the turn, it's more difficult to know whether the river 3-bet is okay. I'd 3-bet the river if you led the turn and he didn't raise you then.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the flop. Everything else looks ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think hero gives up too much folding the flop. There are 7SB's in the pot and UTG did not raise preflop, so while he could have a King he could also very likely have an 8 with a lower kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If opponent is a dope, he could have limped some bad 8 UTG, yes. If I am UTG, I have a small pocket pair a very high percentage of the time, and something like KJs the rest of the time, so hero can indeed be ahead here. I don't think I fold the flop here either.

jvs

Sorry I misread the board. You guys are right. Action looks good on all streets to me.

[Piiop]

First of all, reads would be nice.

After everyone folds to UTG's flop bet, I'm not really sure a checkraise is the best play here. I realize the BB is still in there but it's not really a big deal. I would consider calling the flop and betting out on the turn.

Your turn play is inconsistent with your flop checkraise. If you thought you were ahead enough of the time to checkraise the flop then you should bet out again. You're missing value from worse 8's and lower pocket pairs. Also, if UTG happens to be capable of folding TT/99, he won't do it if you check. I'd bet the turn.

River is fine considering the weird way you played it.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I misread the board. You guys are right. Action looks good on all streets to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tehox folding the flop is not terrible if we are behind trip kings we are drawing to a bdfd and running eights and the pot is small. If we are ahead check/raising the flop and checking the turn is terrible because we are giving a free card and can possibly fold a better hand 99 1010 with a turn bet. I don't think a flop fold is awful f and I for sure don't agree with the turn play but the river looks good. The only other thing to consider is where a bet comes from on a scary board like this had the BB or UTG bet I would probably fold if the bet came from a late position player or the last player to act I probably check/raise lead the turn.

What is your action if you DON'T pick up the flush draw on the turn, you lead the turn and get raised.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your action if you DON'T pick up the flush draw on the turn, you lead the turn and get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown you fold.

[Michael Davis]

"Against an unknown you fold."

Also, it is unmistakably wrong to check the turn if you don't pick up a draw. Since hero did, what to do on the turn is at least worthy of discussion.

-Michael

[Dagger78]

I like the flop check-raise, typical UTG players will bet a variety of hands that don't contain a king here.

But you MUST bet the turn after the flop check-raise, you want to fold some pairs, 99-JJ might fold in this case.

The River is fine.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
"Against an unknown you fold."

Also, it is unmistakably wrong to check the turn if you don't pick up a draw. Since hero did, what to do on the turn is at least worthy of discussion.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]


I am not "checking with outs" here I may not be behind. Getting raised sucks but I want to fold villain on the turn.

[sy_or_bust]

Folding a better hand on the turn is really a pipe dream. There is plenty of value in betting, but checking makes sense too - some of the worse hands will bet into you, kings don't get a chance to raise, you have a decent draw, etc. Plus, you can sometimes bet/3-bet when you river a flush against trips.

Still, checking isn't good enough here. Too many of Villain's potential hands are worse and will pay off. If Hero held 98s or something similar the check is much more interesting IMO.

[W. Deranged]

Bet the turn.

Getting raised does suck if you are drawing but there are a ton of things that outweigh that extra cost:

-You may have the best hand, and if you were ahead on the flop you are most certainly still ahead here.

-You may encourage a hand like 99 or TT to fold (that would be awesome).

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding a better hand on the turn is really a pipe dream. There is plenty of value in betting, but checking makes sense too - some of the worse hands will bet into you, kings don't get a chance to raise, you have a decent draw, etc. Plus, you can sometimes bet/3-bet when you river a flush against trips.

Still, checking isn't good enough here. Too many of Villain's potential hands are worse and will pay off. If Hero held 98s or something similar the check is much more interesting IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sy these are all good points and I'm pretty sure this is what Michael was getting at but check/raise check/call is a line I can honestly say I have never taken and I do believe there is a chance to fold out a better hand here slim but a chance. What do you think of the flop play with UTG betting into the field? Would you ever consider check/call bet or just leading out on the flop? I think the flop play here is equally as important as the turn so I would like to hear yours or anyone elses opinion on it.

[GTSamIAm]

You need reads on UTG badly. Why'd you check/raise then check?

[thejameser]

you know what you should have done on the turn, but damn villain is begging for a c/r. i would have taken mental note of this for later hands.

[DiceyPlay]

The only read I have on this opponent is that I've seen him play a couple of hands in a non-straightforward manner (i.e betting or raising and then folding). But, truthfully the games are so loose and there are so many players going to the flop and beyond that it's hard get reliable reads or remember them.

On top of that, I have two computers. One of them has PT and game time +. I use that computer with PT and GT+ when I multi-table. My other computer doesn't have these tools and I don't multi-table on it. Multi-table+PT+GT+ = WORK. Single table = RELAXATION. I already have a job that is stressful enough. I was single-tabling without PT or GT+. So, I was playing without maximizing my ability to read my opponents.

I have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Flop: (6 SB) K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif, K /images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)

I checked the flop to see what would develop. UTG's bet is suspect. Why would he bet if he had a K? Does he hate money? Does he hate bad beats? Does he have a K and think someone in the field will think he's full of sh*t and pay him off? Do I think too much? When it's folded to me I decide to raise. I think a check-raise is typical of an early position player who flops trips. I should take it down right there unless he has a K. He calls. WTF? No re-raise? Does he have a K or not? I don't know what that means. He's being a tricky bastard. I must change plan. I don't have a plan for this (that's probably why I suck at poker).


Turn: (5 BB) 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

My draw improves. I don't want to get raised because my weak ass will probably fold if I do. So I check/call.

River: (7 BB) Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

I bet and get raised. I remember what another poster pm'd me once. He said you have to get the most with your good hands. He sometimes value bets a bad ace and gets caught. So I re-raise. I'm relieved when he only calls.

He had A8o. MHIG.

When I look backwards on the hand I think there's lots of good things that can be said about my line. But they might only be true if and when I hit my draw. When he calls my flop raise, I think I should go into call down mode. A better hand isn't folding enough times to make a bet worthwhile. But a worse hand will continue to bet enough times to make calling down +ev. If I improve, which I did, I can come back to life and pounce. All input is appreciated.

Thanks,

-DP

[sean c]

Folding to a turn raise would have been really bad.

[onegymrat]

Hi Dicey,

I am not liking your flop check-raise at all. It seems to serve two purposes only: a) to narrow the field, but there was a bet in EP instead of LP, which spoils the plan a bit. b) to raise for value, but you checked the turn.

I would have undoubtedly check-called the flop only. If BB called the flop, I would attempt a check-raise on the turn if the /images/graemlins/heart.gifcame, which it did. If BB did not call the flop, I would lead the turn and call a raise, and bet the river of course. I read the results and your river play was great.

But then again, I don't play online. What the hell do I know?!

[DocMartin]

The flop c/r is saucy. From there you should have gone for the elusive Trifecta.